Greece - A New Hope

chthonic-anemos

bitchute.com/video/EvyOjOORbg5l/
8,606
27,257
Greece is what all of Earth will be like after civilization goes off-world. Right down to the last detail; shipping will be the only real industry.
g9Mem06.png
 

General Antony

Vyemm Raider
1,142
3,547
They want it as an amendment to the constitution because it would encompass the full panoply of American legislative power. Aside from another amendment the only thing that would supersede it is a treaty ratified by both houses and signed by the President.
Treaties are on the same level as other federal law and subordinate to the constitution. Congress could even unilaterally change a treaty (provided they can override) and US courts would have to uphold the newer law and disregard the treaty even if we were still bound to it under international law.
 

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
285
Interesting perspective :

Greece debt crisis threatens 70 years of peace - Commentators - Voices - The Independent

Greece debt crisis threatens 70 years of peace

World View: We forget that, before the EU, wars in Europe were the norm


Political crises in the Middle East and North Africa since 2011 have either produced extreme violence or caused countries to dissolve into civil war. The territorial settlement that followed the defeat of the Ottomans in 1918 is collapsing, but there is no clear sign of what will replace it, other than conflicts which nobody knows how to end.
Bad though this is, the world has got used to instability in the Middle East and North Africa, almost as if it were a natural phenomenon like earthquakes in Japan or hurricanes in the Caribbean. Seven wars are being fought in Muslim countries between Pakistan and north-east Nigeria. In Europe, on the contrary, 70 years of almost continuous peace since 1945 have convinced its people that this is the natural order of things which will continue despite hiccups in atypical places such as Greece and Ukraine.

But peace in Europe has been very much the exception over the past 1,500 years and there is no God-given guarantee it will continue. The golden age of European integration may have ended as long ago as 2008 when the financial crash began to divide eurozone members into winners and losers. In the same year, the easy dominance of the Western powers established after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 began to look less absolute when Russia invaded Georgia.

The justification for European integration goes back much earlier, to the period after the Second World War. Moves towards European unity always involved more than the creation of an economic mutual benefit society promoting liberal capitalism and democracy. Since its distant beginnings in the Franco-German Coal and Steel Community of 1950, the greatest success of pan-European institutions has been to contain and satisfy an over-mighty Germany through institutions and mechanisms working to its advantage as well as that of other European states.

It is a formula that has worked so well for so long that Europeans, including the Germans, have forgotten that the stabilisation of Europe after two calamitous world wars was never inevitable. The European Union (EU) succeeded because it transmuted German superiority in terms of wealth and power ? the great European problem of the first half of the 20th century ? into a more benign and acceptable form. Germany could exercise its greater political and military strength, but also operate through a more integrated Europe in which all benefited.

It is this balance of interests that is changing. The Greek crisis ushers in a new and unstable balance of power in Europe. Germany is again exercising power unilaterally by imposing deeply resented terms of capitulation on Greece. Wolfgang Schauble, the German finance minister, even suggested that Greece might temporarily leave the eurozone.

The eurozone has immediately become a less attractive entity for many of its members. If the Germans give total priority to their own interests then so will others. Nationalism will revive as state policy and as a sensible way of interacting with the world. The ability of European leaders to cope effectively with fissured and potentially unstable parts of the continent, such as the Balkans and Ukraine, is reduced. The factors that fuelled the struggles for power in Europe between 1914 and 1945 will begin to seem relevant once again.

Such apocalyptic visions of the future have seldom proved out of place in the Middle East. On the contrary, I have found when writing about the region that, if one?s predictions of disaster turn out to be exaggerated in the short term, they turn out to have been grossly understated when calamity finally strikes. In 2011, I did not expect Iraq, Syria and Libya to have a happy future, but I never foresaw the mass slaughter that ensued or the rise of a power as monstrous as Isis.

Parallels between Europe and the Middle East are never exact, but familiarity with the turmoil in the latter does open one?s mind to the terrifying speed with which states and societies can collapse into division and violence. After 70 years of peace, this is something that European politicians and officials lack experience of dealing with. Speaking to such people ? usually intelligent, well-meaning and at some levels well-informed ? about the problems of the Middle East, I sense their instincts and background are all against believing that things can be as bad as I describe.

It is this dangerous tunnel vision, which can be worse than stupidity, that has turned the Greek crisis into something closer to a catastrophe. A striking feature of events in Greece over the last seven years is that there has been little violence. But the Greeks now find that their views, peacefully expressed in a general election in January and a referendum in July, are treated with contempt by Germany and its allies. EU leaders ignore the danger that some Greeks, having exhausted democratic means of dissent and with no legal alternative but tame surrender, will decide that the bomb and the gun are the only way to have an impact. Given that foreign tutelage means nothing but misery, it is bound to be resisted in one way or another.

Already, the Greek crisis has tarnished the EU?s image as a community that brings peace and prosperity. It is becoming a weaker and less stabilising force in the Balkans because the lure of EU membership is less attractive than before. Equally, enthusiasm for helping Ukraine in its confrontation with Russia has ebbed fast and is much less forthright.

Germany is not alone in acting as sorcerer?s apprentice and stirring up demons better left in peace. Remember how in 2011, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy made a self-congratulatory visit to Benghazi after taking a leading role in overthrowing Muammar Gaddafi. It is worth looking at video of a beaming Cameron on that triumphal day, evidently without an inkling that, by displacing Gaddafi, Nato had delivered Libyans to warlords and gunmen.

Cameron has never paid any political price for his role in destabilising Libya, despite the fact that the Tunisian who murdered 30 British tourists at Sousse was trained in an Isis camp there. Likewise, few make a connection between Nato?s actions in Libya in 2011 and the flood of migrants from North and West Africa, some formerly holding well-paid jobs on Libyan construction sites, who now risk and often lose their lives sailing for Europe in overcrowded boats and rubber rafts from Libyan beaches.

The real significance of the Greek crisis for Europe is about political power rather than economic relations. The Duke of Wellington said that ?a great country can have no such thing as a small war?. The United States learned the truth of this maxim in Iraq after its invasion of 2003, and its influence in the world has never recovered. What the Duke said of wars is equally true of political crises. Whatever the fate of the Greeks, Germany and the eurozone leaders have done themselves lasting political damage in pursuit of a minor economic objective.



And a photo :

rrr_img_104760.jpg



That's Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Big Phoenix

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Gold Donor>
44,659
93,330
The whole "everyone canceled/forgot about Germanys debts after WW2" is pretty idiotic comparison. See WW1 reparations and being ruled by a brutal dictatorship if you cant figure out why.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
14,071
6,775
The whole "everyone canceled/forgot about Germanys debts after WW2" is pretty idiotic comparison. See WW1 reparations and being ruled by a brutal dictatorship if you cant figure out why.
That silly ass comparison has been brought up a ton of times in this thread. The minute you see someone bring it up, it is a red flag that they don't know wtf they are talking about in regards to this crisis. It seems to be their last gasp after they have ran out of other "feels" arguments on the subject. Not shocked Flight eventually resorted to it.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
42,381
50,444
I've brought it up before because it does make Germany's ultra hardline stance on debt forgiveness pretty funny, even if the two situations can't be compared to one another at all.
 

khorum

Murder Apologist
24,338
81,363
They've taken haircuts twice before that's why. After the FIRST time they said they must never do it again.The second timethey worked around that restriction by focusing the debt forgiveness on the private investors and banks... but those same institutions just moved the cash around and the creditor states' taxpayers ended up paying for 107 billion in debt forgiveness in the end. Each time the writeoffs were against the rules of the EFSF and the ECB's original bailout treaties anyway.

Greece has been in default and bankruptcy for more than half its existence as a sovereign state. If you think the Germans were mean, the British navy actually REPO'D the entire Greek fleet to pay off its debts in the 1850's. This isn't because its surrounded by vicious predatory capitalists that like to lure hapless greek socialists into debt slavery, it's because they spend their way into monstrous debt and burn money on shit like the Olympics.
 

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
Link to a recording of Yanis Varoufakis briefing top financiers about the Greek crisis:

http://t.co/USsF13Tl8Z

Around 12 minutes in, he talks about the major tussle between the European Stability Mechanism, European Commission, IMF and German finance minister Wolfgang Sch?uble.

"Wolfgang has quite clearly said to me that he wants Grexit. He clearly believes that this extend and pretend is unacceptable. This is the one point where we see eye to eye - I agree with him, but for completely different reasons.

The IMF does not want an agreement because it does not want to violate its charter again to provide new loans to a country whose debt is unviable.

The Commission really wants the deal to go ahead, Merkel wants this deal to go ahead."

Yanis Varoufakis went on to warn that the French government is ?terrified? of the austerity demanded by Germany. "The French are terrified. They are terrified because they know that if they?re going to shrink their budget deficit to the levels that Berlin demands, the Parisan government will certainly fall."

Varoufakis then explains how Wolfgang Sch?uble has outlined to him his plan to reshape the eurozone, to add more political union to make it sustainable. And, Varoufakis added, Sch?uble believes that a Grexit will equip him with: "sufficient terrorising power to impose on Paris what the French are resisting, which is a degree of budget-making powers from Paris to Brussels."
Varoufakis Tapes: French government 'terrified' of Berlin's austerity drive - live updates | Business | The Guardian
 

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
285
That silly ass comparison has been brought up a ton of times in this thread. The minute you see someone bring it up, it is a red flag that they don't know wtf they are talking about in regards to this crisis. It seems to be their last gasp after they have ran out of other "feels" arguments on the subject. Not shocked Flight eventually resorted to it.

You seem ignorant of the fact that Germany directly stole 100s of millions of marks from Greece during the war itself the vast majority of which were never paid back.


The 1953 reduction of Germanys debt was not just the money owed from post WWI but around 50% from post second world war 2 loans. Also the terms decided upon in 1953 were incredibly favorable to Germany and have led directly to Germany becoming the economic power house that it has (eg not only were half of the post WW2 loans made to Germany written off, repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings and repayments would only ever be made while Germany ran a trade surplus). It is quite ridiculous to compare what was going on with the torturous conditions imposed on Germany by the French after WWI.

On the other hand the moneys lent to the bankrupt UK by the US were quite different, never reduced and only finally repaid in 2006.


Interesting quote from Keynes after those first negotiations : "If we take the view Germany must be kept impoverished and her children starved vengeance I dare predict will not be limp'. Do we think then there will be no ramifications to what is happening now in Greece and other European nations ? I expect to see similar results in Greece with the further rise of the extreme right and Fascism accelerated.



Not sure how I've rattled your cage Khalid but then you often resort to abuse in generally adult conversations. Maybe you're spending too much time in the Rickshaw and becoming a man of small wit. Quite the opposite of Harris whose picture you use as your avatar.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Cad

<Bronze Donator>
24,487
45,378
You seem ignorant of the fact that Germany directly stole 100s of millions of marks from Greece during the war itself the vast majority of which were never paid back.


Not sure how I've rattled your cage but then you often resort to abuse in generally adult conversations. Maybe you're spending too much time in the Rickshaw and becoming a man of small wit.
Germany was also completely flattened and destroyed in the war, which seems like payback enough.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
And I'm sure America had nothing to do with it.

I mean look, that's just an atrocious "but the FEELS" attempt at a juvenille guilt trip. Is that really the depth of your thinking on the subject? It doesn't even make any sense. It's just "waaaaaaaah. SIG HEIL!" Which isn't even what's going on. When you go Godwin you sorta need to take a look inward.

Wolfgang at least sounds like he has a plan. He's trying to form a truer union. I doubt he'll succeed, but at least he wants to build something.
 

Faith

Useless lazy bastard.
1,178
857
He's wrong on the definition of austerity to begin with. Then he's wrong about passing balanced budget legislation being practiced "nowhere". Then he's wrong about about slashing government spending being "the rage".
What is your definition of austerity then? Wherever I look its cutting government spending to achive a balanced budget, and this is simply not being done right now. The US 2015 fedral budget is, from what I can find, as follows;

Total revenue $3.34 trillion
Total expenditures $3.90 trillion
Deficit $564 billion

Is this a balanced budget? If you makes cut in, as an example, social welfare but you increase military costs you are not trying to cut costs in regards of the budget. Looking at most developed countries right now there are very few places that aim for a balanced (i.e. revenue equals or exceeds expenditures) budget.

As far as I know, all euro countries have broken the rules regarding deficits sometimes since the creation (yes even Germany and France, they broke the 3% of GDP deficit rules in 2003 and Germany has broken them at least 3 times in total;Germany Government Budget | 1996-2015 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast
).

My point is that almost no government (regardless of ideology) let small things like not having the revenues to pay for their expenditures stand in their way of spending money on toys they want. To claim only "socialists" are cheating with the numbers is simply retarded.

Finaly; I have no idea where you got the "Then he's wrong about about slashing government spending being "the rage" part from since I stated "Sure, currently the rage is slashing social welfare but the budget deficits are still around. ". As in, they cut the social welfare costs right now but fuck if they cut the total spending.