Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
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Then the obvious would be to, oh, I don"t know, DO IT.Lourdin said:
Seriously, look at all the MMOs out there, ninja all the great ideas and implement them. Don"t let shit take a back seat and go we"ll get to it eventually. Like EQ2s pvp ability/gear system and guild system, WoW"s accessibility, an open system similar to eve/UO, and a platformer style gameplay like DDO. At least, IMO.
Power is a relative term. Power to a crafter is the ability to steer entire markets with their goods, to PvPers it"s being at the top of the food chain, to PVE"ers it"s something else.Grave said:
But you are entirely correct. If you have to make players play through your entire game to feel heroic and powerful you"ve screwed up in the 1st stages of designing your game.
Players play these games to have FUN, AND feel powerful and heroic. That"s not some magic level or stage of content, that has to happen from jump street. Why can"t the entire experience from creating an account to logging in, to creating your character to actually playing the game, why can"t all of that at the very least be entertaining, and more often than not, fun?
It can be, but you can"t be tied to someone else"s timelines or budgets.
That"s where much of this falls apart. Companies have budgets tied to fiscal quarters, they have to have product on the shelves, and to many upper tier management people the level of polish on your product is farther down on the food chain than we gamers want it to be.
Again, imo, it"s why Blizzard has and continues to do great things. No one tells them what to do, or when to do it. You certainly have responsibilities and no one short of Bill Gates can afford an open ended design cycle, you have to have dedicated, passionate and committed people making your game, your IP, your entertainment experience.
But for me, the last piece, and maybe most important, is that to set yourself apart you have to design an entertainment EXPERIENCE and it has to be made by people that are passionate, committed and invested IN the product instead of being flexible pieces of multiple teams that can shift and move from product to product, not caring much at all about what they are working on, but rather just happy with picking up a paycheck.
I think it"s one of the things we have going for us that shows every single day in our space.
Pasteton
Blackwing Lair Raider
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It all sounds good but in the end the difficult part is actually figuring out how to achieve those things. I"m sure there were a lot of passionate people working at vanguard, and im sure they werent passionate about producing a piece of shit. There"s just so much more complexity involved with making a successful product that goes beyond the realm of passion, commitment and investment and other "power of positive thinking" words, including a lot of random uncontrollable and unforeseeable variables.Ngruk said:
imo i think too many new mmo"s are too caught up with analyzing "what did wow do right" and instead of trying to implement wow"s positive aspects, they just end up making another wow, except with clearly crappier production values since they obviously dont have as much money as blizzard. I"d like to see someone just make the game they want to without worrying about whether the mass gaming populace will find it enjoyable, and having the financial security to not have to worry about the repercussions
Woefully Inept
Karazhan Raider
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The skill system from EVE/UO is more rich than the class system. They are interchangeable as far as I"m concerned. Skill systems, go for EVE, but with a way to actively train abilities like UO. Class systems, go FFXI job system.
If I am not mistaken, EVE is as much about when you signed up as it is about anything else, even skill. I could start playing now, and never be as good as a player that might have less skill than I do, for the simple fact that person was a player sooner than I was and built his skills and stuff up over the time required, which I still must do.
Not that that is a bad thing, but to me EVE is a fantastic game for the niche market it targeted.
I think Hilmar and the folks at CCP did a great job, but EVE was aimed a a very specific hard core bunch.
You don"t have to be hard core to play, or even sign up, but to experience all the different content and see big stuff don"t you have to have a lot of time invested?
I also don"t like the thought that I could train to some uber stud level, offline, almost completely.
Not that that is a bad thing, but to me EVE is a fantastic game for the niche market it targeted.
I think Hilmar and the folks at CCP did a great job, but EVE was aimed a a very specific hard core bunch.
You don"t have to be hard core to play, or even sign up, but to experience all the different content and see big stuff don"t you have to have a lot of time invested?
I also don"t like the thought that I could train to some uber stud level, offline, almost completely.
You can be marginally useful within a few months, but you still have a long way to go to get into big ships. Sure some gang may let you run around in your light ship and tackle or whatever, but no, you won"t be in a Titan or anything for a couple of years.
And yes, you could pay your monthly fee and never play and have max skills if you started at the beginning. Of course you would have no ISK and suck at the game still.
And yes, you could pay your monthly fee and never play and have max skills if you started at the beginning. Of course you would have no ISK and suck at the game still.
OneofOne
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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You are mostly mistaken. There is a core set of skills that do apply to all ships, and people having these skills at high levels certainly have an advantage, but because of the way the skill training works in time invested vs actual increase, it takes less time to *catch up* than most people think. The higher you go in a skill, the more time exponentially it takes to learn it. The largest advantage older players have is in the versatility of their characters. I can fly a large array of different ships and I"m decent, but not ubber, in any of them, because I choose to go that route. A player starting after me can choose 1 or 2 ship types to specialize in and kick my ass when it comes to flying that kind of ship. I also have the advantage of being able to "craft" pretty well. But I"d expect a player in EQ or WoW who"s been playing a while to have the advantage of a crafting alt as well. None of this even touches on the idea of player skill. I"ve seen too many players with lots of skill points get owned by people with but a fraction, because your ingame skills aren"t "insta win". Sorry Kurt, but this is a sore spot with me because it"s espoused so often, and a cop out for too many people.Ngruk said:
As far as becoming an ubber stud offline, not going to happen, for two main reasons. 1) Like I said, player skill matters, so all the skillpoints in the world won"t tell you how to properly fit a ship and use it and 2) skill books, ships, equiptment, etc all take cold hard coin. If you aren"t in the game earning it (or sadly, buying it from IGE) then you are going nowhere fast.
You are correct, Eve is a niche game. But the playerbase is growing, and CCP"s got a good thing going. And regardless of your personal opinion on the game, there are some great lessons you can learn from them - both positive and negative.
Was going to post what 1of1 just posted above. The offline stuff really is just a leveling mechanic, you still have to put some time in mining/trading/whatever to make the cash to buy the higher level skill books. That does take time, although you can mine a lot and move stuff around with a minimal bit of attention on the game while you do other things IRL.
EVE is a good game and I enjoyed the time I spent playing it (which is certainly not something that I can say about every game) but let"s not kid ourselves.
If I had for some reason kept my account alive from launch, that character"s trained skills with even moderate work would have more "game value" than nearly any level of ISP. Not alone of course but time-in is the only really insurmountable barrier in EVE and way more than in any other game I"ve ever seen. One can crunch and grind for cash to at least some degree but few things in the world can make that skill training happen.
If I had for some reason kept my account alive from launch, that character"s trained skills with even moderate work would have more "game value" than nearly any level of ISP. Not alone of course but time-in is the only really insurmountable barrier in EVE and way more than in any other game I"ve ever seen. One can crunch and grind for cash to at least some degree but few things in the world can make that skill training happen.
Yea, a character that is years older may have an advantage in an equal ship, but if you know what you"re doing, you still have a chance, as long as you don"t branch out a ton. Obviously, you aren"t going to be solo killing any dreads and titans a few months in, but you can get into some good roaming pvp.
I haven"t played much, only have about 6.5mil SPs and am piloting a Raven fairly well. You just have to take a bit of time to understand the mechanics and how they work, maybe get someone who knows a bit more about the game to turn a lot of the complex ideas into some really laymen terms and it"s golden.
1of1 explained better than i ever could I think.
also, I was just saying a skill system similar to EVE, but with a way to actively train some skills, for the depth and robustness of the trees.
I haven"t played much, only have about 6.5mil SPs and am piloting a Raven fairly well. You just have to take a bit of time to understand the mechanics and how they work, maybe get someone who knows a bit more about the game to turn a lot of the complex ideas into some really laymen terms and it"s golden.
1of1 explained better than i ever could I think.
also, I was just saying a skill system similar to EVE, but with a way to actively train some skills, for the depth and robustness of the trees.
A skill system of EVE, where you can"t actively improve your character, will never appeal to the masses.
In EVE the only way to improve your character is through making money (there are many many ways to do this which is awesome) however no matter how much you make your character is still constrained by real life time as your skills are trained.
In EVE the only way to improve your character is through making money (there are many many ways to do this which is awesome) however no matter how much you make your character is still constrained by real life time as your skills are trained.
Theres a thread on EQ2 Flames, where 38 Studios has been discussed for a couple of pages. The guys there are saying they don"t know much about it and a couple of numpties are even comparing this to Sigil and Vanguard.
My stand there has been about what I perceive as the strength of 38 Studios - their management set up and the standard of their recruitment from inside and, particularly, outside the industry.
SoE is a Clusterfuck ATM - Page 11 - EQ2Flames Forum
I bring up 38 Studios in post 104 and it gets picked up for a few pages shortly after that.
I"d be very interested to know who is responsible for quality at 38 Studios and who is the guy ultimately answerable for it (I don"t personally do quality but its an area of interest to me).
I believe that for a game to do as well as it can, the company responsible for it needs to bring in a QA Director/Manager from outside of the industry; this particular skill set is not nearly as well developed within the gaming industry as in others. If this happened I predict an exponential increase in the potential of the delivered product.
That whole discussion may be boring for a lot/most folk, but I believe it is the area entirely responsible for why we see so many poorly delivered games and why our expectations are so low in respect to new MMORPGs.
My stand there has been about what I perceive as the strength of 38 Studios - their management set up and the standard of their recruitment from inside and, particularly, outside the industry.
SoE is a Clusterfuck ATM - Page 11 - EQ2Flames Forum
I bring up 38 Studios in post 104 and it gets picked up for a few pages shortly after that.
I"d be very interested to know who is responsible for quality at 38 Studios and who is the guy ultimately answerable for it (I don"t personally do quality but its an area of interest to me).
I believe that for a game to do as well as it can, the company responsible for it needs to bring in a QA Director/Manager from outside of the industry; this particular skill set is not nearly as well developed within the gaming industry as in others. If this happened I predict an exponential increase in the potential of the delivered product.
That whole discussion may be boring for a lot/most folk, but I believe it is the area entirely responsible for why we see so many poorly delivered games and why our expectations are so low in respect to new MMORPGs.
It always feels like "balance" is the holy grail that everyone chases. Is it really necessary?? Do I really want everyone to be relatively equal everywhere??
Every character should be fun and be useful in the world and that is the main consideration. Some should be more useful in certain situations, while they suck in others. You don"t expect your expert bowman to be awesome in melee and you shouldn"t expect your expert melee person to be awesome at range.
Its all about have useful skills rather than "balance".
Every character should be fun and be useful in the world and that is the main consideration. Some should be more useful in certain situations, while they suck in others. You don"t expect your expert bowman to be awesome in melee and you shouldn"t expect your expert melee person to be awesome at range.
Its all about have useful skills rather than "balance".
This is more or less true if you limit yourself purely to the character that you create when you log in. One of the unique aspects of EVE is that it is, AFAIK, the only MMO with a legal character market where in-game currency can be exchanged for a new character. So while the guy you create tomorrow will never be as good as my character which I created 1.5 years ago, you can play 5-6 hours a day while I"m off trying and failing to get Gladiator in WoW and earn a crapton of money, then buy a character that"s substantially better than mine.Ngruk said:
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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I would really like to see a western MMO jump on the FFXI job system, as well as combat synergies of their skillchain system. Both are very rewarding, and allow you to have "alts" but without being forced to repeat very meticulous things (faction grinds) on later characters.
You are rewarded for faction grinding once, or for doing a substantially more involved quest (limit breaks for level 50/55/60/65/75 etc) But once you do that, it unlocks all of your "jobs" past the first.
The ability to class swap with the same faction/keys on the fly is also extremely rewarding in the small group sense. If you have 5-10 good friends it allows a more dynamic ability to fill and create viable groups over time, that are say....all keyed for the same content. Since your character earns the key, and then the jobs are also things your character has earned.
Level limiting boss events like the burning circles in FFXI is also another really interesting way to make challenging older content as long as it is kept appropriately rewarding for whatever level range the limit is set for.
You are rewarded for faction grinding once, or for doing a substantially more involved quest (limit breaks for level 50/55/60/65/75 etc) But once you do that, it unlocks all of your "jobs" past the first.
The ability to class swap with the same faction/keys on the fly is also extremely rewarding in the small group sense. If you have 5-10 good friends it allows a more dynamic ability to fill and create viable groups over time, that are say....all keyed for the same content. Since your character earns the key, and then the jobs are also things your character has earned.
Level limiting boss events like the burning circles in FFXI is also another really interesting way to make challenging older content as long as it is kept appropriately rewarding for whatever level range the limit is set for.
The next FF MMORPG has been in development for over two years and is managing to stay well below the radar. The job (class) and combat systems are without equal and will surely be kept. If they embrace the PC (they surely will ?) and drop their ideas of unified worldwide servers (I don"t think they will) they could see WoW numbers.Dandain said:
I agree totally - I"d be very happy to see a western MMO use these systems. EQ2 tried to emulate the combat system, but failed miserably.
For folks who aren"t familiar you can get an idea of the combat system from the following chart :
http://images.somepage.com/ffxi/renkei.jpg
Weapon skills are skill based, with level caps. Each class gets different caps for each weapon type. At certain skill levels you receive new special attacks. The chart above shows how these different skills can be chained and produce various effects. They produce significant damage or bonuses. Only two classes can do these chains on their own and then far more limited than multiple characters.
Individual attacks and specific chains have elements attached to them. There is further significance because :
i) mobs all have elemental attributes and are weak to some element types and strong against others;
ii) Mage classes can add additional effects at the end of combat chains, using spells associated with the element type to produce "bursts". These are like an additional chain at the end, producing further damage and effects.
The whole system is based on Shinto, as is the entire game, but that can be ignored in analyzing and performing the mechanics. The true genius behind it is that it is the only system in any MMORPG that makes a partys potential truly greater than the sum of its parts. It also produces many more class possibilities, in terms of enabling and promoting class and party mechanics.
No other combat system comes close; after using it every other games party combat seems incredibly boring.