Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

That sounds dreadfully boring.

Agraza said:

MMORPG != holy trinity, but class-based interdependence does = holy trinity. EQ is not the genesis of the tank/heal/cc design. It"s been around in JRPGs and D&D for years. This design defines the sub-genre.

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It doesn"t have to define the genre. If I had $35,000,000 to build a game (and I don"t and never well) let me tell you what I"d do -- I"d use CCG mechanics instead of RPG mechanics. Let me use MTG as an example because we"ve all played it.



In a hypothetical MTG MMO Instead of Tank/Heal/CC classes you get White (small creatures, heals, protection, mass removals), Blue (control, counterspelling, flight, card drawing), Black (fear, creature removal, graveyard spells), Red (direct damage, land destruction, hasted creatures), Green (fast mana, creature summoning).

Now there is some overlap between the EQ/WoW world and this hypothetical MMO (e.g. in this hypothetical MMO blue would have control spells that map closely to current charm spells).

But we get to the next part of mechanics which, again drawing on CCG mechanics, you may have a few static abilities but mostly you use CCG-like decks to randomize ability availability. None of this button mashing crap when the global timer/ability time resets. You need to counterspell you better have 4 and put 4 in your deck and you better hope it comes up.

I"m sure actual game developers could vastly improve on this really limited and basic idea -- but I get pissed off when people say that CC/Heal/Tank is the only way to go.

That would be a fun game, not a fun MMO.

Wouldn"t combat have to be extremely slow? Wouldn"t you get pissed off when your "deck" gave you a couple bad draws?

From Agraza"s posts, it"s funny that Moorguard would be considered a "traitor" while Furor and Tigole aren"t. Same difference?

Quite easy to fix that problem with intelligent class design.

You don"t see any lack of healers in Vanguard, because they"re incredibly fun to play. Make all classes as fun as the omg pew pew DPS classes and you"re good to go. - Grave

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/agree 100%. Classes need to fill certain roles to complete quests, raids and other objectives, but make them fun to play and versatile with customization options (talents, skills, gear, whatever).

If you"re going to use classes and you"re going to go for PvE, you"re going for tank/heal/cc. It"s the most basic structure for cooperation.The only PvE games that don"t employ it as the core of gameplay are off on some social/crafting experiment.- Agraza

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Just as a request from those of us who like the immersive elements and versatility of a skill system, please look at SWG for social classes (doctor/entertainer), level and types of player interdependence, and crafting/harvesting. Also for player/object interaction and housing/city structure if you so choose to implement that into the game design, Ngruk.

Grave said:

That would be a fun game, not a fun MMO.

Wouldn"t combat have to be extremely slow? Wouldn"t you get pissed off when your "deck" gave you a couple bad draws?

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Well, hypothetically, Combat shouldn"t be any "slower" though the actual time to kill something (mob, another player) would be longer -- you"re making more, varied, complex decisions in less or equal time than in WoW/VG/EQ. Your decision tree keeps changing as you use and aquire new "cards" It"s not like the game would be waiting for you to choose a "card" to play. It"s real-time not MTGO.

Edit: Sure you"d be pissed off. But that makes it interesting. No more mindless combat.

Yes, because the RNG is something we love and not the spawn of the devil.

How about player housing? What"s the best ever? Worst ever? Your dream setup for player, guild housing? Instanced? Real "virtual" real estate? Combo?

Ngruk said:

How about player housing? What"s the best ever? Worst ever? Your dream setup for player, guild housing? Instanced? Real "virtual" real estate? Combo?

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For ease of use and cool stuff, EQ2 kicked all kinds of arse. Quest rewards specifically designed for hanging up in any random place you like, with cool particle effects at times. Combining settings to create visual effects that don"t actually exist (Fish tank with air bubbles et al). Only downside was fixed floorplans.

UO probably had the best actual *house* customization, but decorating/etc is a lot more impressive when you can actual go 1st person and walk around looking at things.

Allowing housing in the wilderness seems like a good idea, but UO ended up having a house down on every area of arable land.

Instanced Housing Parks/Neighborhoods with purchasable plots/dimensions seems to be the least intrusive way to do housing while still being able to show off your pimped out house.

The AOC borderlands-keep idea is actually a pretty cool idea for Guild housing. But then, I liked Shadowbane and Anarchy Online guild cities

I don"t see how player housing can work in anything but an instanced form of SOME sort. Beyond that, the actual house needs to have some form or function related to the game beyond simply being able to pick out which pink polka dotted curtain you want to string up in your boyfriend"s bedroom. Which, to me, means if you have a global/public bank the whole point to a house is null and void -- a place to keep your shit in.

Maybe as some sort of massive expansion to the bank, if your game is going to support that. Maybe as the place you go back to to get "rested" experience, if you are going that route. Personally, I"d prefer a competent, natural guild banking/housing system to a player housing system. There"s so many incentives you can place inside a guild house to get people to buy them, and at the very least it"s an avenue to relieve some of the inevitable pressure on raiding guilds that"s bound to pop up via quick patches.

FFX has the best "functional" house, where you actually do a lot of things within the confines of the house itself. The entire gardening minigame + bonus you get from certain furniture is all self contained within the house. The house is also your bank access, and where you change your jobs.

If you want the house to be a social part of your game, then you need to go with guild halls for that. Let guild halls be your non-instanced housing. Let guilds have statues pictures or plaques that mark important dates. Such as killing a boss, it keeps a record that non-guild people can tour, but then a secure section that is member only. Guild halls could actually be visually customizable to affect the landscape of a city or the country side in neat ways.

Ngruk said:

How about player housing? What"s the best ever? Worst ever? Your dream setup for player, guild housing? Instanced? Real "virtual" real estate? Combo?

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Steal EQ2"s housing system then combine it with LOTROs instanced neighborhoods and you have a winner.

Ngruk said:

How about player housing? What"s the best ever? Worst ever? Your dream setup for player, guild housing? Instanced? Real "virtual" real estate? Combo?

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Player housing presents a difficult dilemma. On one hand, it makes sense to go instanced because it"s much easier to implement and it keeps you from having to create large blank masses of land intended to be used for houses. On the other hand, what"s the point of having a cool, fully decorated house if no one is going toseeit? Sure, you could invite people in, but other than that no one is likely to come check out your place. EQ2 tried to combat this by allowing players to sell things in their house at a cheaper price than the broker, but that"s a flawed system imo.

You have to admit, it was undeniably cool to see player-run cities back in UO, especially the ones that were well organized and had their own individual rules. It would be amazing to see that replicated in a modern MMO. Still, given the exponentially larger fanbase we"ll be dealing with here, it may simply be impossible to allow housing to be placed in the world. While it"s cool sometimes, it"s equally annoying when you can"t go 2 feet in the world without seeing a home. This would be even more apparent with a couple million players.

I think, therefore, a middle-ground must be reached. The best example to look at in this case is probably LOTR"s neighborhood system. I think right now LOTR housing instances can hold 30 houses, which is pretty nice. I wouldn"t mind seeing it expand even larger than that. Inside this zone, it would probably be a good idea to somewhat limit where a house can be placed, but not TOO much. Let people choose where their house actually rests, but tailor so once the zone gets populated it starts to look like a real town.

The best way to do it would probably be to have a racially themed neighborhood instance branching off of each main city.

- If a guild earns a Guild Hall, Keep or Castle they also get their own neighborhood instance. Any guild member can move to this instance for free. This would allow for something close to what I was talking about with the player-run cities. Guilds could practically have their own Kingdom! Also, who wouldn"t want to show off their pad to other guildies?

- If a player is un-guilded or his guild does not own a neighborhood instance, they choose from a list of neighborhood instances that have already been created, but can never make a new one (unless all available ones are full). This means people would always be around others and may even make some new friends in the neighborhood. If they had some friends in a particular "hood, they could choose that instance and live near them, which is fun.

I would also suggest having multiple types of houses like UO did. It was always a draw to try to afford something ridiculously huge, and it feels good to finally get it. This could also get really fun with the racial themes. Badass ebony tower for your Dark Elf Wizard anyone? Maybe you want to open your own Tavern in the neighborhood? Tons of possibilities.

The biggest challenge really is getting players to come to your neighborhood or house to see it, but at least with a large amount of players per instance you would at least have some people running by your place every now and then.

Screw the usual "place to put my shit" type banks. Do you keep your guns or other weaponry in your bank along with your savings? Who do you know that keeps a bow and arrows in thier safety deposit box? Or flowers they picked? Hell, if I was Frodo, i"d have stuck that damn ring in the bank in the Shire, and grabbed it back out when I got to Mordor. Stupid friggin" hobbit

Actually, fuck banks all together. Player housing with basic storage to start with is a better fit, even if it is instanced. Got some weapons to store? Get a weapons rack. Armor you just can"t seem to part with? Stuff it in a bureau/chest. Put the stupid flowers in a window box. Stack the copper bars on a shelf/rack. Stick your spare cash in a mattress or desk drawer. Do you always carry 500 pounds of shit everywhere you go?

Banks are for lazy bastards who can"t be assed to plan ahead, and an easy "out" for devs that can"t come up with a better alternative. Give players a reason to regularly visit thier housing. Maybe even multiple housing locations instead of the usual..... one. Just keep the "upkeep" shit in check. If your housing is in an inn, its costs you rent. But, if you buy housing, you pay a reasonable "maintenance fee".

The only housing I ever got to experience in-depth was AO; I did the newbie EQ2 housing quests, but aside from that I never bothered with my house. With AO it was kinda fun furnishing my house, buying a better apartment, etc., but I always wished there was some added benefit to having one. Something like increased rested XP regen (I think WoW tinkered with that idea concerning Inns in Beta), a title, ceremonial clothing/armor, or a bonus to the faction that rules the city you dwell within.

To expand upon the latter-most example, if you own a small cottage you get a small bonus to the XP/cash rewards from quests, or you get increased reputation gain, or you get a discount from vendors. The bigger your estate the bigger a bonus you get. It would give some substance to the idea of player housing as well as provide a "money sink" to help balance the economy, and give players a reason to spend time in (and care about) their home city.

From a PvP perspective, I don"t think extremely harsh penalties should be in place for owning a house and storing your goods in it, but if your city were to be ransacked by the opposing force a loss of value of the property (say, 10%) would be incurred on your property that would go down over time (think rez sickness for housing). This would also make players that own houses care more about defending their home city, since they get fewer benefits if the enemy "wins" so to speak.

EDIT: On the opposing team"s side, you could gain bigger rewards for sacking a city with a high real estate rating (the NPCs drop more money, boss mobs have increased loot drop rates, etc.)

I don"t play these games to play house.

I think kegkilla has the idea, have regular houses be instanced and stuff like guild halls not.

Ngruk said:

How about player housing? What"s the best ever? Worst ever? Your dream setup for player, guild housing? Instanced? Real "virtual" real estate? Combo?

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Meh, UO did it amusingly, EQ2 to some degree and AO again to a slight degree. Only DAoC really had "housing" that sorta kinda mattered and even then it was mostly another bindpoint. Housing is one of those things everyone thinks they want but really, they don"t care nearly as much as they seem to.

Use it as a money-sink and it will appeal a great deal to the small subset that will actually care about it much. Well, that or present it in the "guild castle" vein and blow it up as an epeen extension.

At the end of the day though, relatively few people are going to hang out at their house or whatever and that"s that.

Maxxius said:

I don"t play these games to play house.

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/concur

DAOC, EQ2, etc all have boring unattractive housing models. UOs could have been good if it wasn"t wracked with issues and exploits, but that was a very different game paradigm.

The only one that did anything at all fun and innovative was the original SWG and it"s architect built ones.

I"m interested to see how Age of Conans Borderlands concept works. I hope housing moves more in that direction.