Woefully Inept
Karazhan Raider
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One of these days Zehn is bound to have a really shitty idea but until then...it"s only gay of the balls touch rangoth.
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I like PVP to be incorporated INTO the world. Much like Tallon and Vallon Zek did, with the factions having open PVP across the world and battling for resources and control of non-instanced zones. Given that it was open world combat PVE and PVP blended together, if your faction was controlling a dungeon then they were also getting those loots from that dungeon and your faction was not and thus you might be losing ground on the gear front, but that is your factions own fault and you are simply losing the game, suck it up.rangoth said:
At least with TZ PVP had a point, you were not doing some random battleground, you were fighting for the actual PVE elements and both PVP and PVE were not separate like they are in WOW which IMO is a huge mistake and leads to alot of the issues WOW is having with the two separate systems. PVP and PVE should not be separate, they should both be intertwined, if you succeed at PVP you should have more access to PVE elements and as such those PVE elements lead in turn to greater power in PVP.
What would also work is an outright Rallos Zek type of PVP and simply make guilds be the major factions allowing them to compete for control of zones and resources. That is IF you want to have true, meaningful, and brutal PVP. EVE does this and what they do could work in a fantasy based MMORPG albeit on a smaller scale.
Rangoth
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I think that is a stupid concept and mentality.Tropics said:
So what do you do when the other half of the population that can"t do shit leave the game and you have no one left to curb stomp? Fucking stupid.
I have no problem getting my teeth kicked in during PvP...I would only give myself a B- or so at PvP, I am NOT good at it. But if I loose I want it to be because the other guy is better, not because he has double my stats from gear.
The only reason you want that kind of game is because you can play all day in whatever uber PvP guild you are part of and own the server.
That being said, I am ok with, and in fact even FOR, open world meaningful PvP. Objectives, castles, dungeons, whatever....but there should not be a gear thing involved. Make the reward something else.
Control of a zone does not mean you are going to be left with nothing to do. I take it you did not play a server like Tallon Zek in EQ. If you had you would know that while you might not have "easy" access to Lower Guk because the dark elves controlled it you did have access to Mistmore or Unrest because your side controlled the zone. In Kunark the darkies controlled Sebilis for the most part while the light side of thing (the other 3 factions combined in an alliance) controlled Karnor"s castle. That meant if a group of lights wanted to fight in Sebilis they had to fight their way in and get the control of the zone from the darkies, and often exactly that happend. This PVP meant WAY more in my mind and got alot more of my interest then some meaningless castle siege that gives the winning side +5% to experience gains for the next 6 hours or allows the looting of some goofy shards that can buy PVP gear.rangoth said:
The reality is I played as a gnome, which were factioned up as the shorties, the halflings, the gnomes, and the dwarves. We were underrepresented as a faction but the dark elves, trolls and ogres were by far the largest population so very quickly the light races allied against the dark races and thus balance was created, not through the actions of the game designers, but through the actions and politics of the community that played on that server, and that is one heck of alot cooler then anything I have seen happen in WOW which allows nothing of the sort.
The reward is not "gear" as you mention, it was control of the zones and their use, and while your side will undoubtably control some zones you wont control all, that said nothing stops you from getting a group together of good players and fighting your way in and controlling that zone that is normally not controlled by your faction. It happened many times on Tallon Zek and when I was a part of groups that did that it meant 1000 times more then any meaningless PVP crap in WOW that I could give a rats ass about because of it"s pointlessness.
Actually it"s a pretty good idea and the Zek servers (I played only on sullon really) worked very well because of everything he said. Could I, a newbie with banded armor and a runic carver, take out an entire legion of the goods? Nope, but the evil faction could and almost on a nightly basis there was a big conflict over a territory. If we lost, that meant I had to skedaddle over to some unpopulated and less than optimal leveling zone. It made pvp meaningful, and the meaning was not in the gear to me at least.rangoth said:
I don"t think he said that ALL servers should be like that, but the pvp servers should be like that. If it"s not a gear imbalance, then it"ll be a class imbalance, if it"s not a class imbalance, then it"ll be a population imbalance. PVP in mmos for, I"d say almost all of them, are fucking clunky shitty systems that will wanna make you rip your hair out. However, that does not stop them from being fun.
You said "make the reward something else", well, unfortunately "fun" is not something that developers are goign to bet on. Gear progression is a way to keep people playing, and more importantly to keep them paying. I don"t agree with this in any way, but that is what they practice now.
edit: damn you tropics stop stealing my thoughts and posting them before me.
Sorry bud, but you are living in the past if you think any game that allows one group of people to essentially dictate dev-created content and effectively limit and/or cut-off large sections of the game from another group based solely on what particular race you happened to roll on what particular server will succeed in the current Western market. This is simply not what mainstream games are going to do. Accessibility sells.
Hell, it didn"t even succeed back in your glory day. The first servers in EQ to get consolidated were the 4 PvP servers. And this was pre-WoW explosion.
Hell, it didn"t even succeed back in your glory day. The first servers in EQ to get consolidated were the 4 PvP servers. And this was pre-WoW explosion.
you must not take everything said about the "territories" to be too literal. there were many zones that were mostly accessed by one group, but that didn"t mean it was impossible.Twobit Whore said:
In fact all that needed to be done to take over a territory was the thought of "hey let"s take over x instead of y tonight", and just about any decent group could do it, or at least for a few hours. On some parts of the day, it may have been the good races owning a dungeon, and on certain parts could have been the evil side.
So, I wouldn"t really say that people were truly limited or cut off from seeing any content. Just because you may not see to the end of one dungeon one night, doesn"t mean that"s what the game IS and there is no way to change it.
Back in the day DAOC and SWG, maybe even planetside to a certain extent, were promising or delivering better pvp combat than EQ. No matter how you slice it, EQ is really a PVE game. The Zek cluster was definitely an interesting experiment, and it was pretty fun when you had more than a hundred people playing.
EVE does this, it works really really well in that game and created a HUGE thread that spanned a entire huge war that took place in that game and lead to the downfall of the largest guild in existence.Twobit Whore said:
What I would like to see is elements from what EVE created in a MMORPG although lesser in scale. You can create the same type of control of resources and areas in a fantasy based MMORPG and base the PVP around those elements.
As a shorty fighting in South Karana for the good camping grounds such as the Aviaks I got a real rush out of PVP, which was not just combat but also stealth and simply being aware of my surroundings at all times to be sure I was not about to be killed by a darkie. And I can still remember the day when darkies came to force me out and a call to my guildmates caused a group of high level shorties to come to the aviak roost and lay waste to the darks. This in turn led to a huge battle about 4 days later with over 50 people on each side battling for control of South Karana, I have NEVER felt the rush I had fighting in that battle in any PVP experience in WOW, not even close. In comparison WOW PVP is a bland meaningless structured experience.
Yeah by no means was anyone truly cut off from the content, it was just tougher to do it as a opposing faction.vynde said:
I remember to this day the group of us that went to Lower Guk to camp for robes and Ykesha"s, we had a strong group, went into Guk and killed all the darks on the way in, and then we were able to camp and hold the 2 spawns for about 2 hours until we were bind rushed over and over again by a single darkie that caused our healers and casters to go OOM and then we were swarmed by a group that was waiting a ways back and killed.
The ONLY problem EQ had was that they did not implement changes that made bind rushing and corpse camping impossible. It could have been done, somehow forcing a player to loot and scoot for a set amount of time, 15 minutes or so. If a game was so inclined they could make the loser of a PVP encounter respawn in a variety of locations close to the place they post the PVP encounter, a slave camp, a jail, a gladiator arena, and then have a quest type of thing that is required to get out of that area and back into the world. It would make sense, you lost the fight, got sold to slave traders, and now you must get free, steal your gear back from the slave traders, kill the leader of the slave traders, and then be on your merry way. During the time that you are in the quest to get out of the PVP loss area you are non-PVP flagged. This would have stopped corpse camping and bind rushing as anyone who died would be at least 20 minutes from showing up again.
The PvP loser idea is a cool one, the first 5 or so times you do it. Then it becomes BB fodder as the worst game mechanic ever.
There are, imo, a billion really cool ideas like this, but once you think them through in real world play experience, they become the suck and are nothing more than time sinks..
There are, imo, a billion really cool ideas like this, but once you think them through in real world play experience, they become the suck and are nothing more than time sinks..
Zehnpai
Molten Core Raider
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This is why on the 4th day God invented the gimmick server. Zone control is fun but it"s not something to base an entire game around. But creating a special server for zone control for the people that enjoy it as well as the hundreds/thousands that would like to try it out?
I mean, there"s a ton of things you can do really with the concept. Just like zombie mod, wc3 mod, surf maps kept games like CS fresh over the years. If you can spare the development time and resources, shit like this is insanely popular in every other atmosphere.
Personally I had more fun on EQ"s perma-death server for the few weeks it was up then I had in all of the LDoN expansion. Sometimes a new twist on an old favorite is just what we need.
Rangoth
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Agree 100%. I"m sure there is some portion of population that would want this, but it is not huge and it damn well isn"t large enough to sustain long term large growth. After one side gets beat down hard for a long enough period of time they leave and when there is no one left to own, the fun is over.Twobit Whore said:
I am ok with the seperate server idea, but please don"t make this default. I will not even consider any game that does.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Project M on EQ1 Test was the best time I ever had on a server, but I could easily see how the gimmick would wear off.
Unless they made it like Left4Dead versus.
"A Corehound"s on Zoey!!!!"
"So what if we have a lock on NToV and Avatar of War and Sleepers? There"s still WToV and that druid circle dragon and, uh, Dain!!!"
Translation: lol enjoy your shit loot while we pimp ourselves out
Unless they made it like Left4Dead versus.
"A Corehound"s on Zoey!!!!"
I remember us saying this when our guild would clear all the content with good gear in EQ1.
"So what if we have a lock on NToV and Avatar of War and Sleepers? There"s still WToV and that druid circle dragon and, uh, Dain!!!"
Translation: lol enjoy your shit loot while we pimp ourselves out
The good way to think your mechanics to the end is to imagine how could you abuse it. PR talk like:"Battle for the control of the zones to win access to some of the most terrifying enemies you can encounter in realm of XYZ " turns into:"Some people will probably never experience this now matter how hard they try"
I know what you are saying, the first few times as a player it is new, the 50th time you have done every jailbreak/slaver escape quest 5 times each and they become repetitious and annoying. The alternative is to simply flag someone as non-pvp able for 15 minutes after a PVP death but the problem I see in this is if I am camping South Karana Aviaks and someone kills me then losing a PVP battle is simply a PVP shield for the next 15 minutes of grief free aviak NPC slaying.Ngruk said:
I honestly thought of the repetitiveness of the quest and the problem of that, in the 10 minutes I spent to brainstorm a solution to the PVP bind rushing and corpse camping it was all I could come up with. I will at least say I figured the quest would be fairly trivial, in effect it IS a time sink to basically keep that person busy for a while and remove the possibility of the bind rush.
One could come up with other options I am sure, flagging a person as non-PVP for 15 minutes, with the caveat that they cannot attack a NPC mob within 1000 yards of where they were killed without serious repercussions such as the removal of the PVP immunity and a serious PVP debuff that lasts for the remainder of the 15 minutes. The PVP debuff makes you cower in fear each time you are attacked by a PC player, unable to attack. This would stop corpse camping, bind rushing, and pretty much enforce loot and scoot since trying to stick around and hunt would make you a easy target for another death.
Play through your later resolution, really think it through. I would argue there are 30 people in this thread who had their exploits up and running as they read through it.Tropics said:
The problem is you go from the initial "cool idea" which often times is fairly simple, to this excruciating complex set of "rules" that hand cuff players, and we all know how players feel about being hand cuffed. Now add to this players will, 100% guaranteed, game and exploit any and every system and you see the real need for simpler systems whenever possible.
I am not making excuses or saying it"s not doable, it"s just the deeper and more complex a solution, brings with it a larger set of rules to exploit and game, a larger set of rules and gaming experience that players can inflict "un" fun play experience on other players...
The only game with any sort of decently fun zone control was the Notum Wars expansion of AO, but their technical problems made tower wars play like Myst, the MMO. But the idea was a good one.FoghornDeadhorn said:
The tower field belonged to you until someone took it. To take it, folks of an appropriate level range had to initiate the tower battle by attacking your control tower, and that started a timer for the battle to begin. Then the battle had a 4 hour limit. If you could hold off an attack for 4 hours, you defeated the attackers and had a 36 (I think) hour lock on being attacked at that field. If you succeeded, the field was yours and you could build all your towers.
The benefit for land control on the small scale was the org contracts that gave everyone in the org certain buffs based on which towers at which QL were setup. On the large scale, a 15% exp bonus was shared among Omni and Clan, and how much of that 15% your side got was dependent on how much territory your side controlled. Even for people not into PVP, simply being on that side gave you the exp bonus, so lots of unaffiliated newbs would join tower battles just to keep the extra exp.
Biut it came with AO"s shit-tacular server performance, and the class imbalance inherent to all class based RPG PVP was just as evident there. You had three classes that got smoked within 3 seconds, 3 that were godlike, and the rest kind of ran around in circles until they saw a server message. And they still haven"t balanced PVP in that game, 8 years later. Like WoW, they have tweaked, nerfed, redesigned, tweaked, nerfed, deleted, etc ad nauseum and PVP is still borked, the performance is still ass, and a cool set of ideas is still buried in a pile of shit.
Gimmick servers, like Zehn points out, is the best way to do it. That way the entire player base doesn"t have to have the PVE experience dicked up to placate the PVP crowd. Zek, monster, god-mode, zero grav, perma death, whatever. Put the non-standard gaming on non-standard servers and let folks have at it.
They made the EXP bonus to the side who won more go way higher than 15%, and it ultimately fucked PVP into the ground permanently, at least on Rimor, since every new player/reroll went Clan for the massive exp bonus, further making it impossible for Omni to dig themselves out of the hole.
Owning land was a good enough reward in and of itself, giving access to towers and really good buffs.
The small EXP bonus, if anything, should have been to the side who was getting trampled, to encourage more new/rerolling players to roll over there in order to keep the PVP somewhat balanced.
Owning land was a good enough reward in and of itself, giving access to towers and really good buffs.
The small EXP bonus, if anything, should have been to the side who was getting trampled, to encourage more new/rerolling players to roll over there in order to keep the PVP somewhat balanced.
I haven"t played serious since 2004, so those are new things I didn"t know, but it sounds like FC kept fucking up the game for PVP. Nice.Kuro said: