Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Miele said:

That"s what I mean for multi-class system, no sub-jobbing, just the ability to switch class and likely role with a few clicks and a gear swap. No lifers can max-out every class and be the true jack of all trades for guilds and raids.

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FYI and mentioned every couple of pages today :

Let"s make sure everyone is on the same page here. It seems we are, but you never know. There are two elements to the job system. Job simply == class.

i) All characters can level all jobs. They can only level one at a time. They have to level each legitimately and their level in each job is saved when they change jobs.

ii) From level 15 the sub-job system is in effect. Characters can choose a second, sub job which is static, doesn"t gain XP and is capped at half the level of the main job and gives the benefits thereof.

We are discussing i) WITHOUT ii)

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Zehn, please come up with a name for this that doesn"t use the word "job".

And while we are taking this 10 minutes sports break, can I mention how I loathe Tom Hicks, with a vengeance.

Genjiro said:

I"m pretty sure you dont have to be a NY fan to hate and loathe everything about Boston sports teams and its fans nowadays. After recent Patriots then Red Sox then Celtics success with the associated smugness of their fans, you pretty much wish Superman would rip that part of the continental US off and hurl it into the sun like he did with those nuclear missiles.

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Well I was trying to be polite, but I wouldn"t disagree with you.

Flight said:

Power gamer is another word that needs to be consigned to the history books. It will have increasingly less relevance in the future of MMOs. As will the wishes of the vast majority of the people on hard core forums like this. But then we"ll realise, "damn, we"re actually having fun here".

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I have to disagree.. Its the freudian/psychosis elements in gaming that will keep the powergamer alive and successful within the gaming community well into the future. The whole concept of the "haves"" providing large amounts of motivation to the "have-nots""....... (i.e.... e-peenor envy is a nessescary commodity... without it persistant games develop longevity issues)

I know catoring to 1% of the playerbase may seem counter-intuitive, but it"s most definatly a good idea (check the subscription base of forums like this, or EJ... or the like). Blizzard (wisely?) plays both ends of the spectrum with a release and nerf model - rather than an EQesqe system which was a more tiered approach. Top end guilds get their hard and sometimes bugged fights - lower tier gets to see the content later after "content tweaks and nerfs" and better gear distrobution.... and the e-peenor grease that keeps the cogs of the game going maintains its tune.

When everyone can get the best junk, easily... you have an uninspired game ala SWG.

Vali said:

I have to disagree.. Its the freudian/psychosis elements in gaming that will keep the powergamer alive and successful within the gaming community well into the future. The whole concept of the "haves"" providing large amounts of motivation to the "have-nots""....... (i.e.... e-peenor envy is a nessescary commodity... without it persistant games develop longevity issues)

I know catoring to 1% of the playerbase may seem counter-intuitive, but it"s most definatly a good idea (check the subscription base of forums like this, or EJ... or the like). Blizzard (wisely?) plays both ends of the spectrum with a release and nerf model - rather than an EQesqe system which was a more tiered approach. Top end guilds get their hard and sometimes bugged fights - lower tier gets to see the content later after "content tweaks and nerfs" and better gear distrobution.... and the e-peenor grease that keeps the cogs of the game going maintains its tune.

When everyone can get the best junk, easily... you have an uninspired game ala SWG.

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I see your point, and wouldn"t consider having content (eventually) available for all player types "catering", especially achievers. I"m categorizing based on the originalBartle categories for gamer psychology: Achiever, Explorer, Killer, and Socializer. "Power Gamers" typically fit the "Achiever-Killer" combo in most people"s definitions. Nothing wrong with having a huge amount of content - a decent amount of it truly challenging - not only for your "power gamers", but for those who are semi-casual who eventually play through and reach the higher tiers of content before or after said nerfs.

SWG was heavily a socializer/interactive community game, according to Bartle, especially with player interdependence forced outside of strictly combat. Just look at classes like "Dancer", "Image Designer" and "Architect".

In my mind, the only "WoW killer" that may exist will be one whose content will cater effectively toallof Bartle"s gamer types.

Edit: Oh, and a link to theBartle Test of Gamer Psychology.

Flight said:

FYI and mentioned every couple of pages today :
...
Zehn, please come up with a name for this that doesn"t use the word "job".

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Twink with benefits? It"s what he said and I got the point.
My comment was based one a few premises:

1) I"m your average gamer: 35yo, married, 7mo kid, likes gaming online every now and then.
2) I was also a hardcore player: long hours, raid-galore, progression oriented.
3) I"m an altoholic.

This been said, I"d truly LOVE being able to play the game from a different angle (read: class) without losing all the "achievements" I got already and without losing my identity as a character.
I like alts only because I want to play all classes (except paladins, never paladins, seriously, no matter the game), but so far I"m forced to "reroll" so to say. I"d like the option to just switch, period. Everything else, including where to re-level and stuff, is up to the devs who make the game.

Replayability is important for me, immersion could be as well, but normally it"s not that high on the list, especially when Stinkysocks the warrior says "guyz, gtt go, mum said dinner is rdy, sry! cu" just before pulling the last boss.

Heritage? Family bonds? Bind to account? Omg-levels of twinking? Whatever solution is out there, getting to the top a second time should be less tedious and let me enjoy and take advantage of the fact I did that already once (or more).

Miele said:

getting to the top a second time should be less tedious and let me enjoy and take advantage of the fact I did that already once (or more).

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I semi agree. WoW re playability is non-existent for me because the experience, regardless of class/race choice, at a point early in the game is EXACTLY the same thing.

That can be changed can"t it? It involves a metric crap ton more content but I am not sure I agree with Blizzard in that it"s not worth it. At least that"s my perception of what they thought.

Given how "old" the game is and the hours meted out in the content, it appears at some point someone pulled the plug on early game content. The answer to a different user experience was "let them level THROUGH it faster".

That"s not wrong, hell their retention is staggering so there"s something to it, but it sucked for me. After 4 70s I just couldn"t do the Barrens again.

Honestly the Barrens was hard the first time through for me.

However, if you think about what we are doing, and in creating a world that players impact, and players "change", actively participate in change, I can"t help but think how cool it might be to be playing an alt through content the 2nd time and going into places that are physically different than they were the first time, and part of the reason they are is because of actions taken by my main. Maybe I am a geeky ass nerd, but that"s cool to me.

The Barrens and the Commonlands (EQ2) need to be dragged into an alley and shot.

WoW keeps getting enough new players that I think they didn"t want to dilute the mid-game. They put a lot of work into the quest flow and funneling players to new places I don"t think they wanted to add +2 more zones to each level range despite how nice it would be for older players. Honestly, making non-heroic instances doable by 2~3 people would do far more for me then a schlew of new "collect 10 bear asses for an item you can"t use, gold you don"t need and experience points"

Being able to queue for BG"s from anywhere and gain XP while in them is proving interesting though.

Anyways...

If you had the time and money to make it work, quests being largely class based would be king. With good use of phasing you could possibly make it work. Having a quest as a death knight where you go down to a small village and reap their souls and drink their blood or being a mage and battling with another wizard in his tower to steal his secrets is a little more epic feeling...for me at least...then being asked by Farmer Mcgumbles to go get his pumpkins for him.

I"d rather have fewer classes with a unique leveling experience like that...which is what I think the direction Bioware is going so we"ll see if it works out.

I"ll ignore subjobs because the complexity there is a bit much. Zehn put this nicely a few pages back.
I"ll ignore realism arguments on both sides of the coin, because we"re talking about a game, not a sim and I typically only care about internal game consistency, not so much about realism.
I"ll be nice and won"t quote the number of people who actually use a multiple jobs feature as opposed to multiple characters in the games that give the option

Advantages to a job system:
1. People feel like they are making their character more powerful and diverse, which is true in a sense but it is purely opening up options not compounding power. (I like this personally since it benefits players and design)
2. Being able to have a single identifying name is appealing.

The disadvantages of a job system:
1. Quests which can only be done once per character. The diminishing quest availability with job switching forces a grind to level subsequent job choices.
2. This is made doubly problematic if class specific or even class-focused items are given out as quest rewards and those quests can not be re-done.
3. Switching jobs adds complexity to a character and complexity undermines accessibility. This is more simply done via just having multiple characters.
4. Greed factor is potentially increased by those who exclaim things like: "Oh, I can use that on my 8th job, I"m rolling need."
5. Part of character identity is appearance, appearance is usually a factor of class, being able to change classes at will diminishes this recognition.

The things a job system mitigates but other systems could as well:
1. The regrinding of faction is typically not fun.
2. Being able to share earned gear with multiple characters is a benefit.
3. Being able to change role within a single character is a benefit.
4. Some kind of benefit for doing the content "once" already is nice.
5. Not having to pay for transfers of 23 alts is an advantage.

Personally, I"d rather the things which other systems could mitigate be explored over a job system. The advantages are appealing certainly, but I don"t think they outweigh the drawbacks even with the valid argument that some of the disadvantages (greed) are self-correcting and probably light anyway.

And when things fall down to personal preference then in order to make a decision you use a decision making razor: If it"s replayability or increased diversity and growth in a single character then you"d have a job system. If it"s accessibility or class being part of character identity then you don"t.

Dymus, we recalled it twinks with benefits. The important thing is just to make creating alts enjoyable, no matter how you go about doing it.

Your disadvantages can be mostly mitigated depending on how you handle it. Simply put, quests can be reset. You already do it for new characters anyways or when you do group quests. The inconsistency is already inherent to the system anyways as well. The "Arugal has five heads?" problem.

For point #3. Let"s not call it jobs, let"s call it "Destinies." You open up your change destinies menu, select your new destiny and after a channel time and a loading screen, bam, you"re good to go. Complete with all the twinks with benefits thing we"re going for.

Number 4 is a non-issue. The player base will adapt. We handled it 10 years ago in EverQuest when everything was droppable, we"ll handle it now. If you make loot non-stupid (DO NOT MAKE GROUP/RAID LOOT RANDOM OR I WILL FIND YOU AND BRUTALLY INSULT YOU) then it"s even more of a non-issue. Every time you kill a boss, you random and the 1 or 2 people who win pick whatever the fuck they want. It couldn"t be more simple and drama-free if you gave everybody a free thai hooker with your game to blow them whenever their stress level goes over a certain limit.

Number 5, again, destinies, twinks with benefits, whatever. I lose a big part of my identity when I change characters since I am Zehn and I become Pokemons. This part is so subjective it hurts.

Twinks are in fact the answer. They add to the low level population(a serious issue for new players entering the game), they allow people to experience different races and starting areas(something that is always interesting), and can exist within the restriction of max level characters not being able to eventually max everything.

It also keeps the demand for low level materials and items going, and it allows for newer players to interact with more established players on the trip up to the cap, making new friends and giving them a social reason to want to hit the level cap.

Letting someone take one character to the cap then just add all the other capabilities in the game to that character negatively effects all that.

Zehn - Vhex said:

Dymus, we recalled it twinks with benefits. The important thing is just to make creating alts enjoyable, no matter how you go about doing it.

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The goal I can completely agree with, there are no arguments from this end. The particular route might differ but the intended destination is the same.

Thanks for humoring me the last few pages. As always, some very cynical, opinionated, but insightful people around here.

Gilgamel said:

Letting someone take one character to the cap then just add all the other capabilities in the game to that character negatively effects all that.

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While twinking is a fun little side game, it alone just doesn"t answer a lot of the key issues that some sort of job systemcouldaddress. I had a full stable of somewhat twinked out alts in WoW for instance but the issues everyone has already raised caused me to abandon them.

In short, ideally I think you want reputations, faction, keyings, badges/tokens, pets, mounts, achievements and all those little things you work at on your main to not need to be replicated on your alts to make that alt playable. I think it is a natural progression out of hyper-hybrids that only need appropriate gear to do whatever and it comes with a built-in opt-out for those that don"t want to have that flexibility by just not leveling alternate jobs. As a huge bonus, I like the community aspect of tying all that to one character name.

There are many ways of getting to a solution for alt problems but I would say that a job (not sub-job!) system is the easiest and most elegant. Everyone has their own ideals though of course.

13 years of watching developers flail around and ruin great IP"s does that to people.

Personally I just want to know why Blizzard hasn"t allowed me to re-arrange the order in which my twinks show up on my log in screen yet. 8(

I like the idea of a job system. Runes of Magic actually has an interesting take on it--they don"t let you repeat normal quests, but instead have two separate 1-50 paths and a ton of dailies at all levels. The game itself wasn"t interesting enough for me to actually get very far into it though.

I really hate alts and usually end up making them when I"m so bored with a game that it"s either that or quit. I"d much rather only ever have one character that I"ve invested time into. The problem with that is you always "beat" the game sooner or later and advance your main character to the point where there"s nothing left to do but wait for the next patch/expansion. I"d like to see a game where the answer isn"t "make an alt" or "play our shitty pvp system that just ends up ruining pve in the long run."


I"m also right there with Zehn when it comes to wanting to see the same tired old loot systems we"ve been using since EQ die. Surely someone can come up with something better than mob X drops Y items from table Z... oh, and here"s a few tokens that are supposed to make you feel better when you killed this boss 30 times and still have never seen some of his drops.

So why not split the difference with a "family system"? You make a character. Any other character you makeon that same accountcan be part of the original character"s family. Last names are in the game and unique. So you and all your altson the same accountcan be the Henderson family.

Benefits:
1) Faction by family, not character. Any faction gained by any member of the family is applied to the entire family. Faction grind once per faction only.

Apply this to keys, flags,someachievements, etc. Killed the big ubber end game dragon that gives a title? If that character killed it he gets "Dragon Killer" but if a family member did not, he gets another title that implies someone in his family did, but he himself did not (my imagination fails me here for an example).

2) All items, including no-drops, BoE, whatever, can be traded between family members. Let the twinking begin! As long as you meet any requirements the item has (level, stats, skill, etc) you can wear it, but otherwise you can still hold it (see crafting example below).

This also gets around looting issues. ROT items still have a use and can be given to family members, and yet they are still alts in a sense, so you roll need for the guy that attended. Even loot whores can"t argue that (well).

Mrs. Henderson is your smithing alt while Mr. Henderson is a full time fighter. But Mr . Henderson needs his new BP crafted with all no-drop materials. In this game of family members being able to trade stuff around - no problem! Give materials to her, she crafts, hands back to hubby.

This only really matters if you limit how many tradeskills you can learn per character, or put stat requirements (or incentives) on tradeskills.

You can also use tabards, shield designs, bp logos, whatever for a family crest, so in some capacity if you want all your family members can be identified (even if no one gives a shit).

Dymus said:

The disadvantages of a job system:
1. Quests which can only be done once per character. The diminishing quest availability with job switching forces a grind to level subsequent job choices.
2. This is made doubly problematic if class specific or even class-focused items are given out as quest rewards and those quests can not be re-done.
3. Switching jobs adds complexity to a character and complexity undermines accessibility. This is more simply done via just having multiple characters.
4. Greed factor is potentially increased by those who exclaim things like: "Oh, I can use that on my 8th job, I"m rolling need."
5. Part of character identity is appearance, appearance is usually a factor of class, being able to change classes at will diminishes this recognition.

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#1 - taken care of.
#2 - taken care of.
#3 - taken care of.
#4 - taken care of.
#5 - taken care of either by the unique last name or family crest.

Dymus said:

The things a job system mitigates but other systems could as well:
1. The regrinding of faction is typically not fun.
2. Being able to share earned gear with multiple characters is a benefit.
3. Being able to change role within a single character is a benefit.
4. Some kind of benefit for doing the content "once" already is nice.
5. Not having to pay for transfers of 23 alts is an advantage.

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#1 - taken care of.
#2 - taken care of.
#3 won"t fit in this system.
#4 - taken care of.
#5 - taken care of.

I"m not saying this family system is the best or solves all problems, but, what do you guys think as a compromise between straight alts and a job system? Otherwise I"ll just take a skill-based system and say fuck classes.

Ngruk said:

That can be changed can"t it? It involves a metric crap ton more content but I am not sure I agree with Blizzard in that it"s not worth it. At least that"s my perception of what they thought.

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It does not have to be that way, no. Kunark was a very effective expansion IMO and it caused alot of people to reroll, not just Iksar either but alot of people.

In EQ alot of people liked the lower level content, they liked the journey enough that each new server saw a huge influx of people that restarted on the new fresh server and began the trip back through the content yet again. In that game the number of people at the very top who stayed on a server and simply played at the max level was not all that huge. In WOW I am not sure it is that much different, people in my guild are probably averaging alt number 4 or 5 they are getting to 80 by now. Generally speaking I don"t see alot of people who like to simply get the max level and then stay there and camp heroics and raid. People like the advancement.

The above is why I think remortation would be a positive addition to a MMORPG that created their content right. Instead of adding 10 new levels in an expansion you create a remortation quest that changes a necromancer to a lich and then you are able to add content driven advancement in the expansion for that character in the new expansion. Yes, it would take a load more work, but in all reality I think it gives the players that are on alt number 5 or 6 in WOW or those players that started on 5 different servers in EQ their progression fix without the new servers or running alt after alt through the same content.

In all reality alot of those players I know that are doing this in WOW are destined to quit the game altogether once they have their alt of each class at 80 and realize the end game of WOW which gives everything to everyone on a silver platter is unrewarding and meaningless. Some will leave earlier at the thought of going through the same stuff for the seventh time in a row.

Ngruk said:

Given how "old" the game is and the hours meted out in the content, it appears at some point someone pulled the plug on early game content. The answer to a different user experience was "let them level THROUGH it faster".

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And that, I think, reflects an "elder game" mentality. Namely the fact that it"s highly probable that almost every new player in WoW today comes from being invited by someone. Granted, those someones usually make an alt to accompany their friends/family/colleagues in their levelling (even more with RAF), but the goal of the "recruiter" is to bring their friend to their level, which is usually the current max.

A good design let"s your recruiters achieve their objectives. After all, the - early or not - content isn"t what"s bringing in people, other people is what"s bringing in people.