Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

Exactly. The point I was getting at is that you can"t just count on big names to ensure good sales, unless said name is an institution in gaming itself. People will buy Madden no matter how shittastic it is. Rip ESPN Sports ;(

You dont have to reinvent the wheel every game imo.

I think looking at MMOs as an evolutionary process is the right approach. Use what works, adapt what you feel gives you an edge. WoW is the "dominate species" for a number of reasons. Adapt and improve. Do what they do well as well as they do it and improve what they dont do well. WoW did this to EQ, someone will do this to WoW.

The MMO community moves in packs. A good game will catch on fast via word of mouth. You dont need hype. Once a couple guys in a guild buy a game, they tell everyone else, and the pack either remains at its location or moves on to greener pastures.

What are the things we know a MMO needs in the most general sense.

1. Fluid, "alive" character models. A player spends most of the time looking at one thing, his avatar. its gotta look good, its gotta move well. It has to be interesting to watch.

2. An interesting and compelling background story. People want to feel like they are experiencing a really good novel. Follow a grand story arc that brings the player along with it. (someone get George RR Martin to write lore for them please! Nobody does grand and sweeping better than that man.. nobody)

3. Players want choices. They dont want classes that are essentially the same. Classes need to be clearly defined and with as few overlaps as possible. of course there will be some... but each class needs it own unique individuality and usefullness. Choices have to matter. As much as we want a grand story arc, we also want freedom to make choices and move about the world in a non linear sense. Also allow players to use different play styles.. Soloers, PvPers, Powergamers and progress in a fair way.

4. Interesting High End content. As Gordon Gecko said "Greed Is Good" Everyone watches the top guilds. Everyone needs something to push them ahead. Make the fights challenging, but also make the rewards comensurate. The number one reason imo that WoW has such a high turnover rate is the prevalence of the "Side Grade". WoW itemization must have been designed by Karl Marx. It removes motivation. Dont be afraid to reward the high enders. It only drives and motivates the rest of the player base.

I could go on.. but im others have theirs and would interested to read them

3. Players want choices. They dont want classes that are essentially the same. Classes need to be clearly defined and with as few overlaps as possible

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You want unique classes, but you want to avoid the "specialist" as much as humanly possible...at least in terms of a individual class. For instance, at least in terms of instance running, you can do well with a warrior or a feral druid in a dungeon. If you pigeonhole classes too much, you get left with the dreaded "holy trinity".

I would much rather see more niche games survive and even thrive in the future. You only ever going to get a maybe 1 or 2 AAA titles that have the potential to reach wow numbers. Games like Eve though show that there"s plenty of room for developers who design their games towards a very specific market.

Vanguard"s problem is that is a niche game that tried to be a AAA title.

I think its going to be better for everyone if companies design their games to catch 50k-100k subs, and more importantly, have their budgets to match.

Cybsled said:

You want unique classes, but you want to avoid the "specialist" as much as humanly possible...at least in terms of a individual class. For instance, at least in terms of instance running, you can do well with a warrior or a feral druid in a dungeon. If you pigeonhole classes too much, you get left with the dreaded "holy trinity".

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M-U-L-T-I-C-L-A-S-S-I-N-G

Fammaden said:

M-U-L-T-I-C-L-A-S-S-I-N-G

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Fails for the same reason hybrids fail. It"s okay in theory, but designers almost always fuck it up by having shared GCD"s and using mana.

I don"t think FFXI"s failed for those reasons at all. In fact I don"t think it failed at all. The fact is it allows you to have distinct classes with distinct roles without forcing people to be pigeonholed into one thing thanks to time investment. Talents were like a watered down way to multiclass and they are still too annoying and restrictive for most average players. Your pet obsession with mana as an outmoded mechanic is really a separate issue from the idea of creating unique and interdependent classes while still allowing players a degree of choice and participation to how they approach the game.

WoW and EQ highlight these pretty well. My "obsession with mana" is incredibly relevant because that"s the key fucker right here. Being a fighter/cleric multi-class is incredibly useless in a mana system because you can only do one thing or the other...or you do one job shittily and the other job shittily, so much so that you"re almost better off bringing a fighter and a cleric.

Especially since with the more and more readily available customization methods games are putting into these things, talents/traits/gear/etc...just ends up fucking you. What"s the point of being a fighter/cleric multi-class if your traits/talents/gear is orientated towards your cleric so much so that performing your fighter functions is.

On top of that, you"d need to avoid making classes that compliment eachother better then others.

FFxi"s system failed and succeeded because it just led mostly to templates based on what task you wanted to do. You pick a sub-class who"s passives best help your main class. Just leads to a bunch of absurd/shitty job combinations. If you wanted to tank, you picked a ninja/warrior or paladin/warrior and that was it. There was no such thing as a warrior/blackmage tank.

Multi-classing is a good concept in theory and one that I very much want to see pursued. However, there are a lot of pitfalls that would need to be overcome for it to not just be a basic glorified single-class system.

Anyways...

I do however, -very- much love being able to level up different jobs on a single character. I wish every game would adopt this. It would be so much nicer if I could just level up my main dude in every class and just switch to whatever I need to complete a group.

Oh to dream that impossible dream...

Zehn - Vhex said:

WoW and EQ highlight these pretty well. My "obsession with mana" is incredibly relevant because that"s the key fucker right here. Being a fighter/cleric multi-class is incredibly useless in a mana system because you can only do one thing or the other...or you do one job shittily and the other job shittily, so much so that you"re almost better off bringing a fighter and a cleric.

Especially since with the more and more readily available customization methods games are putting into these things, talents/traits/gear/etc...just ends up fucking you. What"s the point of being a fighter/cleric multi-class if your traits/talents/gear is orientated towards your cleric so much so that performing your fighter functions is.

On top of that, you"d need to avoid making classes that compliment eachother better then others.

FFxi"s system failed and succeeded because it just led mostly to templates based on what task you wanted to do. You pick a sub-class who"s passives best help your main class. Just leads to a bunch of absurd/shitty job combinations. If you wanted to tank, you picked a ninja/warrior or paladin/warrior and that was it. There was no such thing as a warrior/blackmage tank.

Multi-classing is a good concept in theory and one that I very much want to see pursued. However, there are a lot of pitfalls that would need to be overcome for it to not just be a basic glorified single-class system.

Anyways...

I do however, -very- much love being able to level up different jobs on a single character. I wish every game would adopt this. It would be so much nicer if I could just level up my main dude in every class and just switch to whatever I need to complete a group.

Oh to dream that impossible dream...

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I was mainly trying to address the issue of being stuck with what you rolled, but really I think there is not much choice but to have sub classes be support for the main. It would cease to be a grouping game if simply going WAR/CLR let you be a full on main tank and main healer at the same time. My point is that it adds some sort of flavorful pseudo depth to single class systems while allowing you that freedom to be whatever main class you want or need at the time. Last time I loaded up FFXI for a couple weeks when the last expansion hit, my old LS at raid time would be like, person logs in, "what do you want me to be?", Leader: "uh, well sepriothh and mangine are on WHM already so can you go BRD for me? thanks". That shit is a beautiful thing and I want more of it but in a different game.

Cybsled said:

. . .

Furthermore, what if the regular PC title "fails"?

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If your regular PC title fails odds are so will your MMO and at bigger cost. GMG is a total startup. It has zero history. If they somehow make this knock your socks off (no pun intended) MMO game, which is just incredibly hard to do, then fine. But there is only one WOW to date. I know of no other MMO that even comes close to its numbers. And I wager that that success was a large play off it"s history of PC products more than anything.

There are just so many MMOs a person can play (2 maybe 3 tops I would guess). If people are currently enjoying what they are playing they aren"t looking elsewhere unless the word is so incredibly strong about a product (and that only happened once so far).

By creating PC games first, you build up a product storyline. If people like it they will follow it. The cost is cheaper. It is quicker. And you actually can generate income. Assuming you are doing a good job then turn that into a MMO. But as it stands now the odds for success for a total startup company is astronomical.

I put "fails" in quotation marks because even a great game can tank in the regular PC game market. Beyond Good and Evil is a prime example. Online PC games, pay or not, are pretty much the primary growth market in the PC world at the moment. Consoles are just slamming them too hard. Take a look at your typical EB or Gamestop (one in the same now, but w/e). You"ll notice that the PC game section has become smaller and smaller as time has gone on, and it has nothing to do with the reduction in box size.

Well I should clarify, when I used the term PC titles, it meant console titles as well since they are basically compatible.

Valderen said:

I disagree with this in part. Yes we want choices, but there is nothing wrong in my mind with classes that are similar and differ in flavor only.

Take WoW for example, I like paladin"s mechanics...but I hate paladins, I hate the "good" concept being them. I"d love to see a clone of the wow paladin but with an evil twist. Sure it would be somewhat different, but not necessary unique.

Good example of this can be found in EQ2. I love my SK but would never in my lifetime play a paladin, I like my brigand but hate the swashbuckler, same for my defiler vs a mystic...or dirge vs troubadour. These classes mirror each other...yet there is a version that I will never play. It"s more then just good vs evil though...although that"s mostly the case here...but dirge vs troubadour isn"t evil, neither are warlock vs wizard but I might play a warlock but not a wizard.

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You know where my beef with EQ2 came? When, as a guild leader I took it upon myself to do an in depth study of classes and their abilities as they related to raiding.

I took every class, buff, debuff, and made a huge geek spreadsheet labeling their differing abilities.

After doing just ONE class, I realized I"d been had. I chose a Defiler, when I compared him to the Mystic I was stunned to realize we were pretty much the same exact toon, just a tad different.

Listen I LOVED EQ2, still do, but it was at that point that I realized character creation was nothing more than what you did when you logged on the first time. My look, my choice of sex, my race, had literally ZERO impact on my character at the high end. Once you got past the "coolness" of those first few days, weeks, levels, there was absolutely ZERO difference between a gnome defiler and an ogre.

I don"t like that. Now the temp fix and some of the better fixes in other games have been handled by AA"s and other things of the same ilk with different names. But I see the big challenge and the successful games being the ones that make you MORE different and MORE unique as you "grow older" and "better".

It"s what killed VG for me 15 levels into the game after many tries with many different races and classes. Well not the only thing and not as severe really, but I couldn"t get past the EQ2"ish palette for one, and the world, while enormous and potentially cool, seems bland to me now.

I"m way hooked into WoW. I was definitely late to the party but damn do they know how to make a game. The list of things they did right is so long and so impressive to me. My Tauren Shaman, Orc Hunter, Gnome Mage, Dranei Paladin all feel so VASTLY different it"s incredible. Starting with their first 10 minutes in game being almost different worlds, it"s stunning.

I want a mount so bad I"ve actually entertained sinful thoughts as I read the friggin gold selling spammers! I can"t bring myself to do it though, at least not yet

For me the even prettier part of this is seeing the things that aren"t, imo only, right, or don"t work all that well, and know that we"ve already addressed them and are moving farther and farther into some pretty incredible stuff. I know that"s a tease and I apologize for it but I was trying to offer up a little insight to how I look at other worlds and compare and contrast them to what we are creating.

We"ve stated many times here that we won"t reinvent the wheel where it doesn"t need it. There are tried and true formulas that work for certain things and some of those will always work well. But being able to watch these worlds with a birds eye perspective on them and us at the same time is a pretty cool vantage point.

Making classes unique is such a tricky challenge. I think wow made the right choice in having reduced number of classes, and that"s why they are probably closest to what you describe, but even they suffer from cylical over / under balance problems.

EQ2 attempted the solve the problem but going with the arch type system, but as you"ve described, all the classes within in the archtype become very samey and if you attempt to make them unique, that just brings out the out of balances, with one choice becoming the optimal one, and the others becoming the gimp one.


This is one of the reasons I would like to see more skill based games, rather then classes, though they are probably just a prone to the problem.

Ngruk said:

My look, my choice of sex, my race, had literally ZERO impact on my character at the high end. Once you got past the "coolness" of those first few days, weeks, levels, there was absolutely ZERO difference between a gnome defiler and an ogre.

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I"ll be interested to see what you do in the direction of making things like this matter. The only possible issue that I can see with having your initial character creation choices substantially make a difference, is a balance issue. For every person who is satisfied because they feel unique and powerful - there will be another who wants to change what they initially picked because the grass is greener, or because they feel the one they picked got the short end of the stick and its unfair.

My inner roleplayer would love to see my race matter, and my gender matter, etc. Curt, I hope that you do manage to create a system that differentiates greatly between races and classes and genders -- unfortunately its a double edged sword and something that I imagine is harder than it would seem. Good luck though, and I agree with you on all points.

Ngruk said:

But I see the big challenge and the successful games being the ones that make you MORE different and MORE unique as you "grow older" and "better".

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I 100% agree. I would really like to see people evolve into different directions as they level.

As an additional comment, Curt, I just wanted to comment/compliment you on talking to people as a player and not as a business owner. A lot of devs seem very afraid to mention other titles when they"re talking about their game, as if PR and relations with other companies is all their thinking. Its nice to hear you talking in terms of personal experiences you"ve had in various games that you"ve played - and its nice to understand where you"re coming from having played the same games myself.

Just a bit of kudos, keep it up =)

Faille said:

This is one of the reasons I would like to see more skill based games, rather then classes, though they are probably just a prone to the problem.

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Of course they are, even in a class based game everyone has certain skills, and it"s the power of those skills that "overpower" them, not the "class" itself. If paladins healed for 10 hitpoints on a max rank flash of light and 30 hitpoitns on a holy light, obviously paladins in WoW would not be wanted as healers...

Skill based systems will still have imbalances and overpowered abilities (read: Nos) It"s just that everyone has a chance to "spec into" the overpowered abilities, and when they get nerfed, it"s a simple matter of "speccing out" of that same ability. Hell, in Eve, you don"t even have to respec, you just lost out on the time you spent training your now gimped ability, but compared to losing out on the hundred of days that it takes to build up a "class" it"s just so much less of an issue.

Even purely skill based systems have "classes." In Eve you have E-Warr boats in the CC role, tacklers are the snarer, you have people who fit for tanking (3 kinds of tanks, passive shield, active shield, armor), people who fit for dps (every different weapon system is almost like a different dps class, do you want to be the close up rogue with Autocannons, sitting back like a Hunter with long range railguns and "pets" aka drones). You also have the tradeskillers, who spend their entire time doing mining/production/trade.

Ngruk said:

You know where my beef with EQ2 came? When, as a guild leader I took it upon myself to do an in depth study of classes and their abilities as they related to raiding.

I took every class, buff, debuff, and made a huge geek spreadsheet labeling their differing abilities.

After doing just ONE class, I realized I"d been had. I chose a Defiler, when I compared him to the Mystic I was stunned to realize we were pretty much the same exact toon, just a tad different.

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I wouldn"t say you"d been had, Curt. With the vast number of classes EQ2 has, there is only so much you can do to separate them from each other to make them unique. So yeah, you are going to have some overlap and multiple classes that can sort of do the same thing. I wouldn"t say this is exactly a bad thing, as there are enough differences to allow for different play styles. For example, if you want to play an offensive casting type class - you have several options. You can be a pet class, a straight up nuker, an AOE blaster or a DoTer, along with some crowd control for some of them.

Contrasted to WoW where they roll many aspects into one class - you have two primary offensive casters, with a few other classes that can fill that role, depending on spec and gear. You have three or so classes that can tank, but only two is really wanted for main tanking raids.

Narrowing the class selection down makes things simpler - and in a way it gives the player more flexibility in how to play their class - but it also almost forces you to implement a talent system like WoW has in order to give that flexibility.

Listen I LOVED EQ2, still do, but it was at that point that I realized character creation was nothing more than what you did when you logged on the first time. My look, my choice of sex, my race, had literally ZERO impact on my character at the high end. Once you got past the "coolness" of those first few days, weeks, levels, there was absolutely ZERO difference between a gnome defiler and an ogre.

I don"t like that. Now the temp fix and some of the better fixes in other games have been handled by AA"s and other things of the same ilk with different names. But I see the big challenge and the successful games being the ones that make you MORE different and MORE unique as you "grow older" and "better".

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I agree here, but like others have said above - you have to be careful here. If you make races, sexes and other things like this matter youhaveto let the user know how their choices will affect them in the game. If you make starting stats matter, they need to know if the race they pick is not going to be an optimal tank, or healer or whatever. Also, if their choice of religion/deity matters they need to know how it will benefit or not benefit them in the game. Same with looks and their sex - I don"t see how sex would matter unless you plan to implement NPC hitting on the PCs

I"m way hooked into WoW. I was definitely late to the party but damn do they know how to make a game. The list of things they did right is so long and so impressive to me. My Tauren Shaman, Orc Hunter, Gnome Mage, Dranei Paladin all feel so VASTLY different it"s incredible. Starting with their first 10 minutes in game being almost different worlds, it"s stunning.

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See above They are different because there are so few classes. EQ2"s classes had many that felt the same from the get-go because, well, they were the same - since you started out as one of four archetypes.

And yes, WoW did several things right. They have also made some mistakes - some which they absolutely refuse to admit to. The way they balance classes is questionable at times, and the lack of feedback from the devs along with an almost non-existent relationship with the customers is very discouraging.

That aside, I like that they don"t use TLC for content you have out-leveled. If you want to go back and farm WC or Mara for whatever reasons - you can do so. Flood the market with low level green BOE items if that"s your fancy.

The talent system is very well done, imo - and goes hand-in-hand with what I said above about the small number of classes.

Tradeskills are borderline laughable. Before TBC hit(and in anticipation of the new LWing recipes in TBC), I maxed out Skinning and Leatherworking in like 2 days. It was really sad.

I want a mount so bad I"ve actually entertained sinful thoughts as I read the friggin gold selling spammers! I can"t bring myself to do it though, at least not yet

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If you are speaking of a normal level 40 mount - stay out of the auction house. Really dude, you can make enough money from questing and mob drops to buy it at level 40 Or, take up skinning and herbalism and get 100g before level 30 from selling mats on the auction house.

For me the even prettier part of this is seeing the things that aren"t, imo only, right, or don"t work all that well, and know that we"ve already addressed them and are moving farther and farther into some pretty incredible stuff. I know that"s a tease and I apologize for it but I was trying to offer up a little insight to how I look at other worlds and compare and contrast them to what we are creating.

We"ve stated many times here that we won"t reinvent the wheel where it doesn"t need it. There are tried and true formulas that work for certain things and some of those will always work well. But being able to watch these worlds with a birds eye perspective on them and us at the same time is a pretty cool vantage point.

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Again, as stated above by others, it"s really awesome to see you here talking candidly about this type of stuff.