Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling

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grimsark_foh

shitlord
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Twobit Whore said:
... is saying exactly that. It"s not hyperbole at all.
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On the contrary... Even he is not saying that every character should be able to do everything all the time. The character will be required to travel to town, change their class, gear up, and travel back to where they are needed.

Which is no more different then having a max level alt of every class in the game.

Not that I share his opinion. Just pointing out that you are interpreting him incorrectly.
 
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Pinski_foh

shitlord
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Twobit Whore said:
Well to me..





... is saying exactly that. It"s not hyperbole at all.
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What"s the difference between having a maxed out Level 70 Shaman and a maxed out Level 70 druid alt vs. having 1 character who can switch between Shaman and Druid, and both have been leveled from 1 to 70.
 
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Gaereth_foh

shitlord
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Twobit Whore said:
It"s just one step removed from letting everyone be everything at once.. and that"s fucking retarded.
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People rave about Eve"s system all of the time...yet the only thing that changes your role in the game is what ship you are flying. You go to your hanger, yank out a fighter and off you go....or a miner, or a EW ship...whatever.

Yes, yes...you have to learn the skills. But the skillset stays with the character and you change ships as needed.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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grimsark said:
Once again... No one is saying everyone should be everything. Defining your arguments this way leads to nothing more then pointless hyperbole.

A purely skill based system, DONE RIGHT, will encourage specialization for group oriented play, and generalization for solo play, while providing plenty of opportunity to transition between the two and LEARN how to play.
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As noted, I don"t object in theory to skill based systems as opposed to a class based system. As long as the rock/scissors/paper rule is adhered to for content and skill design. I think the biggest problem isn"t in balance but in PUG formation. Sans classes how do you identify what you need.

* * *

2bit -- making someone level up to access the class and then requiring some sort of visit trainer/bank is hardly giving everyone everything. If it takes 80 hours to level to the toplevel in my hypotehtical MMO it will take another 80 hours to level a radically (non-gear sharing) classes. And maybe 50-60+ hours to level a gear-sharing class.

That is no different then the gain you would get from twinking (not powerleveling -- just twinking) an alt.
 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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People rave about Eve"s system all of the time...yet the only thing that changes your role in the game is what ship you are flying. You go to your hanger, yank out a fighter and off you go....or a miner, or a EW ship...whatever.

Yes, yes...you have to learn the skills. But the skillset stays with the character and you change ships as needed.
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Yeah, and EVE"s PvE content is extremely deep.

A game primarily based on PvP fleet battles and mining asteroids is hardly comparable to a classic fantasy PvE game.
 
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Gaereth_foh

shitlord
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The question isn"t if the content is deep...it is about the system itself.

From your response I would have to assume that you don"t think Eve"s system would work in deep PvE content??

Why?
 
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Gaereth_foh

shitlord
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What I am seeing is that you don"t really care for skill systems, the ones you have seen don"t work well in your opinion, and because of those experiences you can"t really envision one that could work.

Would that be fair?
 
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
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what would be the problem with having access to all classes with a single character as long as you spent time building those skills up? FFXI did this right w/ the job system and EVE did it right with the skill system. Maybe a mix of both with more interaction similar to UO"s system would be the best. You"d have players able to tailor their characters to their play styles and still have the ability to switch if you decide to change without having to go to a whole new character.\

Granted there be a system in place to keep players from performing too many roles at once, so that you can"t solo everything. It would make group based shit so much easier to set up a group.
 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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Gaereth said:
What I am seeing is that you don"t really care for skill systems, the ones you have seen don"t work well in your opinion, and because of those experiences you can"t really envision one that could work.

Would that be fair?
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I think the only fair thing to say is that both systems have advantages and drawbacks. Neither one is universally better and the game itself is a big factor in determining which is preferable.

In a "freelance" type game such as UO, EVE, SWG.. skill systems can work. In a classic RPG game class systems work best. Of course this is mostly my opinion, but there is a reason that the original tabletop RPG started with a class system and it hasn"t changed in 40 years.

As far as being able to be every class at once, I think it"s just a terrible idea and brings about many complications that I don"t think systems are ready to handle in a cost effective manner.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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Who the hell is arguing for being every class at once?

The only thing anyone has said at anytime is that alts shouldn"t be necessary. You should be able to use one char to level any class and then switch classes with a classmaster or whatever. How the hell is that being every class at once?
 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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Being able to switch to any class at will is being every class at once.. you just have to stop in town or whatever to do it. And no, it isn"t the same as alts, because last I checked games limited the number of chars you could have per server. You also have the issue of storage space. How is someone supposed to store 27 characters worth of items and gear without the database exploding? not to mention the fact that you are basically taking what little is left of the MM of MMORPG and doing away with it. Why bother looking for a healer when you can morph into 5 different ones at the click of a button? Who needs a tank when you can be 4 different ones at will? DPS? Pfft, I can be 17 different DPS classes.. which one would you like? They all kinda do the same thing, but one guy shoots red balls and another shoots white ones..

It"s all just a bunch of nonsense really. Just my opinion... of course
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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595
Twobit Whore said:
Being able to switch to any class at will is being every class at once.. you just have to stop in town or whatever to do it. And no, it isn"t the same as alts, because last I checked games limited the number of chars you could have per server. You also have the issue of storage space. How is someone supposed to store 27 characters worth of items and gear without the database exploding? not to mention the fact that you are basically taking what little is left of the MM of MMORPG and doing away with it. Why bother looking for a healer when you can morph into 5 different ones at the click of a button? Who needs a tank when you can be 4 different ones at will? DPS? Pfft, I can be 17 different DPS classes.. which one would you like? They all kinda do the same thing, but one guy shoots red balls and another shoots white ones..

It"s all just a bunch of nonsense really. Just my opinion... of course
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Oh come one. Say average 60 hours to level all 27 classes (80 for the first guy less for twinks). You"re talking 1620 hours if all you do is just level one class after another.

Give me a break. Maybe five insane people will do it -- but most will only do what 5 maybe? How many max level alts do people have.

Edit: typo
 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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It takes the average person 200 hours or so to level up in WoW. Lots of people have 2 or more characters at cap. That"s like 7 of your classes off the bat and likely more if any gear carries over to another class.

Besides.. if you have 27 classes or whatever.. let"s say they are inbalanced as hell. A handful of these are going to prove to be better than the rest, even by a slight margin. Why would you level up the inferior ones when you can just pick the best tank, best healer, best dps and screw the rest? Or lets say they are perfectly balanced.. then you also only have to pick one of each and not bother with the rest. If two tanks perform equally as well, you only need one of them to tackle the content. In the end you have a FPS. Respawn, click on Soldier, Lt., Medic, or Support and go. This is not conducive to a RPG that is supposed to be based on meaningful character progression.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
Twobit Whore said:
It takes the average person 200 hours or so to level up in WoW. Lots of people have 2 or more characters at cap. That"s like 7 of your classes off the bat and likely more if any gear carries over to another class.
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Okay so you make sure it takes at least 100 hours to level to max = 2700 hours for 27 (actually a 100-200 less because of twinks but whatever). It isn"t happening. I fail to understand why you"re flipping out about this.
 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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I"m not flipping out about it, I am just discussing your "idea". Why are you flipping out about someone not thinking it is awesome?

I also fail to see how you "make sure" it takes 100 hours to level. As soon as Joanna writes a guide on how to do it in 70, people will be sure to follow it. You say you allow twinking, do you allow powerlevelling too? Make it 20 hours then.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
Twobit Whore said:
I"m not flipping out about it, I am just discussing your "idea". Why are you flipping out about someone not thinking it is awesome?

I also fail to see how you "make sure" it takes 100 hours to level. As soon as Joanna writes a guide on how to do it in 70, people will be sure to follow it. You say you allow twinking, do you allow powerlevelling too? Make it 20 hours then.
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I don"t care that you hate the idea. I just think its amusing that you -- Mr. game designers should be humble and listen to new ideas & etc. -- come up with bullshit reasons why it sucks. Reality is that you don"t like it simply because its my idea but you refuse to admit that. That"s why I keep poking you. No worries, full disclosure, I probably would have the same reaction to one of your posts.

Anyway I"ll help you. There"s a post on this page by Ngruk that is probably the biggest real objection to massive numbers of classes. Make his objection your own! I"d like to think that I could avoid the not-enough-difference problem but theory isn"t reality.

 
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Twobit_sl

shitlord
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tad10 said:
Reality is that you don"t like it simply because its my idea but you refuse to admit that.
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Actually that has absolutely zero to do with it. If my BFF was sitting right here with the same ideas I would think it was just as bad. Nice to know I affect you so much though.
 
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Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Really Tad, it"s a bad idea. But thats my opinion. If I were a game dev, having to develop 27 unique classes, support them with gear, lore skills, docs, etc. would be a useless pain in the ass because there would be redundancy all over the place.
 
Agraza

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Tad and Twobit, you"ve both shit on this thread with a rant most are too familiar with. Odds are they"ve got enough intelligence and experience as players to have that debate on their own, and they consider your arguments extraneous. It is a core decision, one they"ve probably already made and are conceptualizing around.

Checking in to this thread to see it raging on over some dead horse for a week isn"t just boring to me. It"s boring to the company the thread is about. Think outside the box. Focus on some stupid little shit that you feel has been ignored and provide a solution. Why? At the very least for the entertainment value. 99% of outside opinion will be ignored anyway, paving the way for the future thread discussing why it sucked, where it all went wrong, and how you/we/them should have been listened to.
 
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