Fun has really been lost on designers in the past few years. EQ had fun within it accidentally; most games try to mimic that now and just ruin it. There"s a lot to be said for shitty design but awesome gameplay. What am I trying to say here? Vanguard is an enjoyable game with its "moments", but that"s about it. Yeah, it"s fucking huge. If you can play it.
Green Monster Games - Curt Schilling
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The reason you cant have intelligent targeting is because the current games don"t have collision detection on NPC"s and other systems to support it. How about if you surrounded your healers so mobs could not get to them without getting through your tanks (or people who specialzied in armors and abilities that give larger health pools in a skill based environment). How about having abilites that let you place mobs in situations where they can get boxed in by a tank or two who they have to fight through. And don"t give me the shit about technology, I mean come on UO had collision detection 10 fucking years ago.Wodin said:
And who cares what asherons call did, since when has turbine or microsoft done anything right in MMOG"s? That is like saying class based system suck, horizons proved that.
And for the people saying that is what fantasy is all about, where is the fantasy books are you seeing healers during the fights? I must be missing it in the books I read.
hmmm.....we aren"t talking about terrain, or the entire environment. Just pieces.Twobit Whore said:
How about zoning into Strat and someone in you group detects a passage that shortcuts, or shows you something new. Or a spot that someone can climb over, or a place where you can bash through. Next time its not there...its small and its different every time. Those type of small things could be added directly on top of the existing Strat to create small dynamic variations every time you entered.
Its not the big huge things that need to change, its the small things that add flavor and texture. You seem to be under the assumption that I am talking about changing the world every time you enter...its more along the lines of massaging it and adding interesting and fun things for characters to do.
DDO has tanks that can block mobs, but that doesn"t stop missle weapons or spells and oddly enough the tanks still have taunt. Unless every battle occurs in a tiny room with one door then it isn"t going to be feasible.Bongk said:
And it"s interesting you bring up UO because you should be very familiar with the Tank Mage. Plate armor, a halbred and Corp Por..
Nah, Twobit is right on that point. These games are always pretty combat centric. PvP certainly is by definition, and certainly leveling and PVE raiding. Not saying you can"t do other things, but it is all about the combat in the end. Why do you think many harp against this whole "needed" class crap; they waste too much time getting the people together and then hopefully stay together to kill shit.Gaereth said:
Dragonlance Series, Wheel of Time Series, Some of the Feist books (I think), just to name a few.Bongk said:
so what how DDO did shit? 2bit it is impossible to deabte anything with you as you refuse to think of anything except in the terms it has already been done. Before wow came out you woulda sat here and told us rage is a stupid idea it will never work.Twobit Whore said:
There are ways of doing things that have not been done already, really there is. There is also ways of refining and combining existing ideas that are already out there.
Just as a stupid 2 second idea with zero thought to it, why couldnt an magic type person get skilled in illusions and create an illusionary type wall to block off 1 side to help the formation form easier or maybe you have an person skilled in excavation that can make quick trenches than cannot be bypassed or whatever there are a million ways to do it if you open your mind.
There are PLENTY of ideas to do things and I am not saying these are good ideas they are just first thing to pop in my head type stuff, but it IS possible and it can be done and it would be different and until you try it in relaity you have no idea how good or fun it can or would be.
I have read every feist book, who was healing in the middle of battle? ever? maybe a quick cure here and there but noone was a dedicated healer. Who healed frodo in LOTR?Draegan said:
Well you did say:Bongk said:
And I was simply informing you, since you obviously didn"t know, that some games actually have this already. Yes, a current game.
I"m pretty sure I wouldn"t have.. and I hardly think rage is comparable to something like removing all classes and everyone doing totally random shit.
I havn"t read them in years, so thats why I said "I think". LOTRO? No one in battle I guess. But I didn"t bring that one up. You ignored my other two examples nicely though.Bongk said:
The reason why most games (that arn"t PVP related, or heavily instanced) don"t have collision on is because it"s so easy to grief someone. Which is why most games don"t have it.
Well...that was poorly done skills trees. 
A tank mage might be the equivalent of a 41 point arms warrior and a 41 point protection warrior. There is a reason it isn"t allowed its overpowered.
You can"t take things that were done poorly and point to them as reasons why things will never be done better. A properly implemented skills layout has lockouts, deadends, prerequisites, etc, etc. You have to put in checks and balances or it is a goofy system ala the Tank Mage.
I always liken it to a Civ type tree. You pick something and it opens up new paths while at the same time it might be closing down other paths. Then you might have some gear restrictions as well. An open ended system is only as good as the checks and balances you put upon it.
Eve"s checks and balances are time and the different ships. It takes time to aquire the skills to be effective and the ships controls what you "class" you can be.
A tank mage might be the equivalent of a 41 point arms warrior and a 41 point protection warrior. There is a reason it isn"t allowed its overpowered.You can"t take things that were done poorly and point to them as reasons why things will never be done better. A properly implemented skills layout has lockouts, deadends, prerequisites, etc, etc. You have to put in checks and balances or it is a goofy system ala the Tank Mage.
I always liken it to a Civ type tree. You pick something and it opens up new paths while at the same time it might be closing down other paths. Then you might have some gear restrictions as well. An open ended system is only as good as the checks and balances you put upon it.
Eve"s checks and balances are time and the different ships. It takes time to aquire the skills to be effective and the ships controls what you "class" you can be.
Last time I checked fantasy books have absolutely fuckall nothing to do with MMO game mechanics. Seriously. Why can"t I be Legolas and solo 50 foot tall elephants and the hundreds of bandits that accompany them? Because it would be fucking stupid to make a literal translation of a book into an MMO.
Isn"t that pretty much WoW talent trees? The deeper you go in one the less you can get in another.. and gear choices might enhance different ones?
EVEs system sucks though. I"m still waiting for a skill based system that will allow people all this wonderful freedom of selection where you don"t need certain ability oriented players to do certain dungeons, encounters etc.
You can do that right now in Fury - all you have to do is use the previous skills in the tree enough to buy points for the next tree. So someone who plays reasonably devotedly will have access to the majority of skills in the game within a week or two of play.Draegan said:
You end up with everyone running around with a full rack of buffs(because if you"re unbuffed in a system where everyone has access to them, you"re dead), mobility enhancements, as much of whatever the currently overpowered crowd control/DD spell is, and an escape spell or two. It ends up being incredibly boring.
tad10
Elisha Dushku
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I"d agree with this. A lot of the fun I had in VG was almost certainly unintended and much of that was nerfed or changed for the worse -- who remembers the quite cool Mothras in the Tsang forest area?Angry Amadeus said:
I"d say the same thing about WoW. What I enjoyed most about the game had little to do with what Blizzard thought I should be enjoying.
When I said "I"m still waiting", I meant, "I"m still waiting for someone to give me a good example of.."Wodin said:
Fury doesn"t count because thats a god awful PVP MMO.