Guild Wars 2

Tuco_sl said:

You can't zerg the dungeons, but they're so gimmicky it's more annoying than anything. The tank-heal-dps paradigm is much better than what they made.

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bleh dp.

Tuco_sl said:

You can't zerg the dungeons, but they're so gimmicky it's more annoying than anything. The tank-heal-dps paradigm is much better than what they made.

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What gimmick? Do you even realize what they made?

Abefroman 3.0_sl said:

What gimmick? Do you even realize what they made?

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My only issue with dungeons is that the bosses take too fucking long, fighting a boss for 5+ minutes, the last dude in CoF p3 10+ minutes gets rather tedious, because you can't really go all out with your dps to get his HP bar moving. As someone who mostly just pugs, no trinity makes that thing rather entertaining. They should probably buff the combo system though, dungeon run is basically you + 4 dudes, you don't do anything different depending on the other people. Otherwise I'd say the variety is pretty good, sure most of the stuff that replaces your skill bar could be considered gimmicky, but I don't think they are overdoing it.

Outdoor events suffer from their mantra that anyone can participate, it's difficult to design an interesting boss fight where a mechanic can't be abused to make the fight harder. I have no idea how to solve that actually, one option could be to make sub-events for limited amount of people that are much harder and their outcome affects the big event, but how do you stop people from trolling those...

While I am largely fine with the outdoor event layouts, I'm also looking forward to them reworking the existing zones to make them attractive for more then leveling. Since the only thing motivating players is loot, I guess they'll rework the rewards for larger events and chains to Rares/exotics (ascendeds? They plan to make them available outside of fotm), maybe throw in some more events to increase coverage and more of the "hey, over here" npcs that direct you somewhere. It feels much better then an orange blob on the map for me, and they could place npcs that foreshadow events further away so players have time to head that way. Lots of things they can improve even without actual new features.

To those that played GW1 for years, did they introduce many new features or gimmicks outside of the campaigns like hard modes, mercs(heroes), play-as-monster, hot zones and so on in other games, and if yes were those good lasting additions or more feature-of-month stuff that was just added but quickly forgotten about and never improved upon? I'm wondering if we're likely to get meaningful additions or just something to buy 3 months of time until they find a new thing to extend interest with. Kinda like fotm might stay interesting if expanded upon, or will probably get pretty boring if it stays at those 9 small instances forever.

Mr Creed_sl said:

While I am largely fine with the outdoor event layouts, I'm also looking forward to them reworking the existing zones to make them attractive for more then leveling. Since the only thing motivating players is loot, I guess they'll rework the rewards for larger events and chains to Rares/exotics (ascendeds? They plan to make them available outside of fotm), maybe throw in some more events to increase coverage and more of the "hey, over here" npcs that direct you somewhere. It feels much better then an orange blob on the map for me, and they could place npcs that foreshadow events further away so players have time to head that way. Lots of things they can improve even without actual new features.

To those that played GW1 for years, did they introduce many new features or gimmicks outside of the campaigns like hard modes, mercs(heroes), play-as-monster, hot zones and so on in other games, and if yes were those good lasting additions or more feature-of-month stuff that was just added but quickly forgotten about and never improved upon? I'm wondering if we're likely to get meaningful additions or just something to buy 3 months of time until they find a new thing to extend interest with. Kinda like fotm might stay interesting if expanded upon, or will probably get pretty boring if it stays at those 9 small instances forever.

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I think they could make 100% maps more rewarding, like if you complete a map, you get to see all events active on the map.

GW1 - yeah, there was hardmode for almost every map and dungeon, but until they added heroes and more importantly until they let you have 7 of them, it was a bit of a pain because playing with other players was nothing like playing solo and because there were so many zones to do. Playing with costumes was around, same for something like pet battles (Polymock) but I never put any time into that. It wasn't until the last expansion that they added daily zone/mission/dungeon quests which gave some really nice rewards. Most of GW1 for me was assembling my 7 hero group and rolling through the maps, most of them weren't really hard, however couple of the endgame zones were tough as nails and you needed some consumables (think all those buffs from BL chests) to make it. Still, the problem wasn't the gear, it was the knowledge of how exactly to make it, pull, skip, run. Every place worth farming had something like speedrun build, where you went with 8 or as few people as possible to successfully complete the run with max rewards which usually relied on stretching the game mechanics to the limit. Some (or most? I have seen people soloing DoA, which was the hardest zone in the game) places could be even soloed, which was sometimes a feat requiring RTS-esque micro in addition to full knowledge of execution. Most of the game, at least in PvE was about fully clearing zones on hardmode for achievements and gold that carried over into GW2 or doing the speedruns. There were also some challenge missions that dropped special looking armor for your heroes with bonuses for best daily/weekly/monthly score. GW1 was never a game you would sink months of time into, but it was always around. I cleared like a zone or two per day and because there were like 180, I was in no danger of repeating content.

I mentioned DoA, Domain of Anguish, which was special zone accessible after you finished Nightfall, made of 4 smaller ones that were connected and after you did them all you could go kill the final boss, Mallyx, for the best looking weapons and armor and some minis which were almost a currency (along with ectos). When it was released, there was a lot of bitching about it being too hard or almost impossible, As far as I remeber, nothing was ever changed, it's just that people eventually figured it out and got it down to science. Which in my opinion was a nice change from the way Blizzard was handling WoW's raids. Though to be fair, EotN came with some new skills usable only in PvE that made the game A LOT easier.

Abefroman 3.0_sl said:

What gimmick? Do you even realize what they made?

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Is this where you spin your hipster bullshit about how "You just aren't cool enough to understand how like...dynamic this is!"

The paradigm they tried to get away from was a good idea in concept, but they completely failed in the implementation of it. Fights tend to just be a complete mess of dodge rolls, blinds, and other stupid gimmicks to get around the fact that you have no real tanking or healing mechanics. It's like one giant QTE and it completely misses the mark.

The remove of the trinity is a good move imo. The real problem is the PvP vs PvE problem. Until they introduce skills that are strictly PvE only (no, just changing some numbers or minor functionality will not cut it), they cannot give players the tools to deal overpowered PvE mobs in any way besides running around like headless chicken and zerging. Yes an organized team can do MUCH more then a pug where everyone plays his buttons with no regard to the rest of the team. But the organized team is still far too limited in what they can do because their skills are limited to PvP-acceptable limits. Crowd control is so lacking in this game that you are happy if you can knockback something every 10 seconds. There are some nice, special build for it though, like thief blinds, but its really specific. I'm rooting for them to introduce 2 more skill slots for which you gain skills differently (not just buy with skill points because I see it as a system that adds longevity also) and that change their loadout between PvE and WvW/PvP zones. In PvE it could simply be skills that are fine for PvE would but would be totally overpowered or unfair in the context of PvP balance as it exists in GW2 right now. Longer duration stun, fear or mez for example, mind control, taunt that target-locks the mob, that kinda stuff. i'm fine with tanking-based abilities because without a healer, a tank would play totally different and probably not turn boring or be more required then it is now (bads must have guardians and necros, decent players make do with most class mixes). But the moment a class exists that can heal, all bets are off. 95% of the population will require to have that healer on the team or they will not play, because someone else using their time to keep you alive while you jockey for highest crit per dungeon is the best thing ever, and the other 5% will have the organized team with the healer thats just so good that they stuff that was so unplanned it'll be nerfed for being too good or not intended (and considering how A.net swings the banhammer it'll kill those accounts too).

Tldr: Trinity bad, the real problem is mixing PvE and PvP skills, tanks are ok but dedicated healers are the root of all evil

Zaphid_sl said:

My only issue with dungeons is that the bosses take too fucking long, fighting a boss for 5+ minutes, the last dude in CoF p3 10+ minutes gets rather tedious, because you can't really go all out with your dps to get his HP bar moving. As someone who mostly just pugs, no trinity makes that thing rather entertaining. They should probably buff the combo system though, dungeon run is basically you + 4 dudes, you don't do anything different depending on the other people. Otherwise I'd say the variety is pretty good, sure most of the stuff that replaces your skill bar could be considered gimmicky, but I don't think they are overdoing it.

Outdoor events suffer from their mantra that anyone can participate, it's difficult to design an interesting boss fight where a mechanic can't be abused to make the fight harder. I have no idea how to solve that actually, one option could be to make sub-events for limited amount of people that are much harder and their outcome affects the big event, but how do you stop people from trolling those...

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You make awesome points that I really can't argue against. I think the problem people have with the PVE and dungeons of GW2 is that they either do them in pugs, or do them with people who have no idea wtf they are doing. That fight you mention I can do in 5 minutes tops. This really isn't possible in a pug group. I think the majority of my frustration with this thread is that Anet did something different and people are either too set in their ways or unwilling to adapt to not having the trinity. The majority of the anti pve comments are simply just fucking ignorant and not a matter of opinion.

Kirun_sl said:

Is this where you spin your hipster bullshit about how "You just aren't cool enough to understand how like...dynamic this is!"

The paradigm they tried to get away from was a good idea in concept, but they completely failed in the implementation of it. Fights tend to just be a complete mess of dodge rolls, blinds, and other stupid gimmicks to get around the fact that you have no real tanking or healing mechanics. It's like one giant QTE and it completely misses the mark.

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Your build and weapon set has a huge effect on your success. GW2 is not based around unavoidable damage. That is why you don't need a dedicated healer. I'm sorry but agro isn't really mysterious in this game. The majority of bosses and mobs agro on the person with the highness toughness or proximity. Trust me I get it. It's easier to just throw around terms like hipster and poo poo someone instead of trying to understand something. Give me one fight, one boss, one dungeon that is either overtuned or gimmicky and I will give you strats and builds on how to beat it.

Abefroman 3.0_sl said:

You make awesome points that I really can't argue against. I think the problem people have with the PVE and dungeons of GW2 is that they either do them in pugs, or do them with people who have no idea wtf they are doing. That fight you mention I can do in 5 minutes tops. This really isn't possible in a pug group. I think the majority of my frustration with this thread is that Anet did something different and people are either too set in their ways or unwilling to adapt to not having the trinity. The majority of the anti pve comments are simply just fucking ignorant and not a matter of opinion.

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The problem with GW2's PvE is it is just too fucking easy and there are no rewards.

RISK / REWARD

Somebody tatoo that on every fucking mmo dev's forehead. And then make sure they brush their teeth every morning. Idiot loser mmo devs get lost in mindless stuff like gear repair, crafting useless item no. 20002220001, creating raid hoop jumping contests only a robot could love (FUCK WoW), and selling slot machine chests on the auction house so they can pay their idiot mortgage on a house even a hobbit would laugh at.

If devs had a clue then they would ALL be fucking billionaires because we would be pouring our paychecks into their bank accounts for all the cool content they were creating. Instead they follow the fuckwit forumula EQ/WoW created and fail, over and over again because we were tired of it a decade ago.

Grim1_sl said:

The problem with GW2's PvE is it is just too fucking easy and there are no rewards.

RISK / REWARD

Somebody tatoo that on every fucking mmo dev's forehead. And then make sure they brush their teeth every morning. Idiot loser mmo devs get lost in mindless stuff like gear repair, crafting useless item no. 20002220001, creating raid hoop jumping contests only a robot could love (FUCK WoW), and selling slot machine chests on the auction house so they can pay their idiot mortgage on a house even a hobbit would laugh at.

If devs had a clue then they would ALL be fucking billionaires because we would be pouring our paychecks into their bank accounts for all the cool content they were creating. Instead they follow the fuckwit forumula EQ/WoW created and fail, over and over again because we were tired of it a decade ago.

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I really can't argue with what you say. The problem is that all I have heard on these boards, the HARDCORE MMO PLAYER BOARD. Is that it is too hard, gimicky and needs to be zerged. Is the MMO player base saying that they need easy content that is mouth breather status to be good?

Abefroman 3.0_sl said:

I really can't argue with what you say. The problem is that all I have heard on these boards, the HARDCORE MMO PLAYER BOARD. Is that it is too hard, gimicky and needs to be zerged. Is the MMO player base saying that they need easy content that is mouth breather status to be good?

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The reason Tuco called dungeons "too gimicky" is because they are easy and stupid (at least that is how I read it).

GW2 has some depth to the combat with combos, etc. The problem is that there isnt' any need to use it. Every dungeon, event and any other encounter doesn't require any skill. Just run up and hit it. None of the combos, etc are needed. It's a zerg fest and it's boring.

GW1 for the first few years was tough. Failing was common and it took some thought and effort to even get to level 20. But they made it easy a couple years ago and the game became boring. GW2 has the same easy play that the later GW1 game had. It sucks.

I still like GW2. It is better than the other mmo's imo. But the gear grind they created with FOTM, and the retard easy gameplay doesn't make it great. Just passable, and well on the way to forgetable.

Tuco_sl said:

Ok so I've only done a few dungeons, but every encounter I've seen is "figure out the comical nature of the boss and how to dodge their silly attacks and either attack them or perform the puzzle". I got tired of that in WoW raiding.

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You are cheating yourself by not doing more dungeons. Isn't all Pve figuring out the mechanic? I really am confused about the overall response by this community. As a whole I see people crying for challenging content but then crying that something is over tuned and too hard! I'm positive that Tuco not only has a higher IQ then me but smarter then me. I have no problem with this. I am just curious what you want from PVe?

Abefroman 3.0_sl said:

Your build and weapon set has a huge effect on your success. GW2 is not based around unavoidable damage. That is why you don't need a dedicated healer. I'm sorry but agro isn't really mysterious in this game. The majority of bosses and mobs agro on the person with the highness toughness or proximity. Trust me I get it. It's easier to just throw around terms like hipster and poo poo someone instead of trying to understand something. Give me one fight, one boss, one dungeon that is either overtuned or gimmicky and I will give you strats and builds on how to beat it.

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Since when does a fight being beatable make itnotgimmicky? Just because I candefeata boss, doesn't make the strategy or hoops I have to jump through to do so any less of a pile of bullshit. I understand that there are ways to get agro, keep agro, etc. What I'm saying is that removing the "trinity" and replacing it with what they replaced it with completely missed the fucking mark. They replaced one stupid, annoying, gimmicky system with another one. Yay? Maybe that just means the nature of these games is gimmicky. Maybe that's where the genre is at now, I don't know. It just doesn't change my opinion on it not being any fucking fun.

The Guildcast video I posted two pages back says it all. Anet made a list of all the things they believe people don't like and removed them from the game entirely without first asking themselves or gamers why people don't like those things. They didn't replace the systems they removed and they didn't come up with new concepts or design around it. They just...removed what they believed to be all the woes of MMO's and left it at that.

If he doesn't like pve, he doesn't like PvE.
Thats fine.

Frankly, I hate the trinity. But won't really defend what they ended up with. Classes don't have the proper co-op interactions. We need more ally buffs, etc. Boons of +1% damage are shit.

I like that game.
But you can play a path of exile, torchlight, and LoL, and see how class interaction without the trinity should play out.(moba can have the trinity to some degree, but dont have the artificial aggro mechanic) And its clearly not doing that here.

GW2 PVE should be like WVW. Huge maps, large amounts of people vs. large amounts of NPCs in waves and all over the map. And this lasts days and days with many big and small stages.