Gun control

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Caliane

Caliane

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khalid_sl said:
Of course it's hard to monday morning quarterback, but wouldn't you want someone in the theatre armed if it happened while you were in the theatre? If the answer is no, then I guess we just see things completely differently. Maybe you are smarter than me or something, I don't know. I just know I would much prefer that someone be armed than to be nothing but a theatre filled with practice dummies.
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I wouldn't.

I assume you have fired a gun. would you feel safe with anyone, civilian, or even a cop firing within a panicked crowd, in the smoke? I sure as hell wouldn't. How many people would get hit by friendly fire in that situation?
Look at the military and how often they have friendly fire. and military is TRAINED to shoot in tear gas, close quarters, while under fire, etc.
There are certainly many situations where there would have been clean line of fire. Clear sight. good shoots. But, just as many, and probably more, where the civilian will do more harm then good.
Again, I'm not saying take away, but we do not really want to increase the gun ownership either.
 
Caliane

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Thorne_sl said:
See, i still disagree with this completely. On some level you are correct, as we can generalize everything. If you take Suzie who bought a Glock for home defense and has kept it in a drawer by her bed for the past 5 years then yes, you are right. However if you take someone who is a hunter/sportsman/enthusiast that shoots once or twice a month and has maybe taken a training class they would be much more prepared than your "average" cop. Your statement about firearms training not being the most important factor is both right and wrong. Actual firearm manipulation is a much smaller part of proper firearms training than what non gun people think. Even something as simple as most states CCW class requirements focus so much more on safety and threat identification. Look at the 4 basic rules of gun safety as defined by the great Jeff Cooper.

1.All guns are always loaded.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

These are the basics that every gun enthusiast goes by.
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What they do and what they are supposed to do, is not the same.
Hence we get that vid of the cop shooting himself in that classroom.
My neighbor that shot off 3 fingers of his hand, duck hunting.
VP Cheney shooting his friend in the face..


hrm, there is no drunk carry law is there? Edit, looks like CT does have one. specifies loaded weapon.
 
opiate82

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Caliane_sl said:
I wouldn't.
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I would.

In a "mass shooting situation" there are far less causalities the sooner the gunman is met with armed resistance (including possible friendly fire). So if you and your loved ones are trapped in a theater the odds of you and your loved ones getting shot go down the sooner someone starts shooting at the gunman. Now ideally this would be the police, but police cannot be everywhere at once and the time it takes the police to arrive at the scene can be the difference between your loved ones getting shot or not getting shot.

Police response is obviously the best, but when time is a factor, a citizen with a gun is still better than no armed resistance at all.
 
Ignatius

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chaos_sl said:
I doubt it. At least I doubt that it is that easy to apply a blanket statement like that to all of these shooters. I believe that cowardice does play something of a role in the way they choose to do these shootings, but in the situation there is no telling how they would react. There's going to be general chaos and adrenaline and who knows what other factors. I think they were saying that guy in the movie theater took some kind of drugs, too.
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I think there is merit to what Gavin and Araysar are saying though. In the case of the theater shooting, why did he pick the one that was a gun free zone? It wasn't the closest, it wasn't the biggest...I believe, with some exception (crazy gonna crazy) that the idea that someone might resist is a huge deterrent to some of these people. Now I don't know if arming all the teachers is the best way to go, but how about getting rid of "gun free" zones? Just remove the sign. Put some doubt into these peoples heads. Maybe let teachers that have a CCW, do just that.

Don't announce to the world that Mr. Jones has a gun on him at all times, but at the same time don't say that Mr. Jones is going to be unarmed at all times either.
 
A

Arkon the Noble_sl

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School resource officers are common throughout the country. Locally, each highschool has one or two, each middle school has one, and even some of the elementary schools have them. They're just regular police officers with some additional training who are based at the school. Yeah, it is going to take some budget increases and/or modifications to get all the schools covered.. but many of them already are. It is just a priority thing. The federal government has numerous selective traffic enforcement grant programs that pay overtime for officers to write seatbelt tickets, pursue DWI arrests, etc. Funnel some of that money into a federal school resource officer grant, along with assistance from the school districts and throw in a few budget tweaks at the police departments, and having a cop in every school can be a reality.
 
Falstaff

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Tuco_sl said:
Fear is the mindkiller.
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E5hXn.jpg
 
Araysar

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Ignatius_sl said:
I think there is merit to what Gavin and Araysar are saying though. In the case of the theater shooting, why did he pick the one that was a gun free zone? It wasn't the closest, it wasn't the biggest...I believe, with some exception (crazy gonna crazy) that the idea that someone might resist is a huge deterrent to some of these people. Now I don't know if arming all the teachers is the best way to go, but how about getting rid of "gun free" zones? Just remove the sign. Put some doubt into these peoples heads. Maybe let teachers that have a CCW, do just that.

Don't announce to the world that Mr. Jones has a gun on him at all times, but at the same time don't say that Mr. Jones is going to be unarmed at all times either.
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Mass shooters always attack where there is maximum amount of people and least possible resistance: schools and universities, and somewhat more rarely - theaters and malls.

Aside from Hassan who is a unique case of his own, you never see shooters attack places where they might run into adults who will offer resistance. As soon as they are confronted, the immediately commit suicide or commit suicide by cop. They dont want to negotiate, take hostages, look for a way out and they know they can't really go toe to toe with whomever confronts them. As soon as the element of surprise is gone, they know that the game is up for them.
 
Big Phoenix

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chaos_sl said:
If it were my kids going back to that school, I would be glad of the guards. Sure, we have cultural issues or whatever to address. But for the time being I wouldn't feel safe sending my kids to school without at least something.
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What about the park? Library? Mall? Grocery store?
 
Z

Zhaun_sl

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chaos_sl said:
If it were my kids going back to that school, I would be glad of the guards. Sure, we have cultural issues or whatever to address. But for the time being I wouldn't feel safe sending my kids to school without at least something.
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I can't say I've spent a lot of deep thought of this, as I really don't care much, but it kind of occurs to me that this kind of thinking and response (plus the overhyped news insanity) seems more likely to raise your child in a subtle aura of fear and have more of a negative consequence to the children then just trying to live lives like nothing happened.
 
chaos

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Ignatius_sl said:
I think there is merit to what Gavin and Araysar are saying though. In the case of the theater shooting, why did he pick the one that was a gun free zone? It wasn't the closest, it wasn't the biggest...I believe, with some exception (crazy gonna crazy) that the idea that someone might resist is a huge deterrent to some of these people. Now I don't know if arming all the teachers is the best way to go, but how about getting rid of "gun free" zones? Just remove the sign. Put some doubt into these peoples heads. Maybe let teachers that have a CCW, do just that.

Don't announce to the world that Mr. Jones has a gun on him at all times, but at the same time don't say that Mr. Jones is going to be unarmed at all times either.
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Thorne just pretty much laid out the challenges involved in that situation. Responsible_Citizen_001 wasn't going to take that guy out barring some extreme luck, and the likelihood of him hitting innocents would have been high. I've actually been to that theater years ago, it is pretty big. I'm not sure why he picked that place, but I don't think it is reasonable to assume he cased movie theaters for "Gun free zone" signs prior to planning his assault. The shooter in that instance was prepared to be shot and wounded.
 
chaos

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Zhaun_sl said:
I can't say I've spent a lot of deep thought of this, as I really don't care much, but it kind of occurs to me that this kind of thinking and response (plus the overhyped news insanity) seems more likely to raise your child in a subtle aura of fear and have more of a negative consequence to the children then just trying to live lives like nothing happened.
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If you project that fear onto them, sure. There is a middle ground between not caring and locking your kids in a closet. I think it is natural to put yourself into these situations that have aspects you can relate to. In the Sandy Hook shooting situation, I have young kids and can easily empathize with the situation. I think it is natural that some of those thoughts would intrude into your life and make you question your own safety or that of your children. Ultimately, yeah, you have to go on with life, you can't be a crazy shutin because something bad happened halfway across the country.

But in the case of the story I was referencing there, this is the direct vicinity of the shooting. Something horrible like this happening far away that only impacts you in some abstract, emotional way is one thing. This is literally down the interstate that this happened, or even closer. I don't think it is unreasonable for people in that community to want some kind of security.
 
Big Phoenix

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No, expecting things to change based purely off your emotions is unreasonable, and well pretty idiotic(its the primary reason behind 99% of the bullshit laws/regulations/gov agencies in this country). Things like having armed guards suddenly appear at schools is purely a emotional response to Sandy Hook, not to a legitimate threat or security issue.
 
chaos

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Of course it is, I specifically said it is an emotional response that doesn't reflect the fact that statistically our schools are very safe. Those Americans who aren't replicants sometimes make irrational decisions based on emotions. Who cares? So it costs a little bit of money to get people feeling ok about sending their kids off to schools in NJ. Not the end of the world.
 
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