Health Care Thread

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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
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I wrote in my very first post today, that if you live in an area with already high healtcare costs, you may see some net benefit from ACA when factoring in subsidies. This really just means you are relatively (to previous generations) poor in an area with high cost of living, likely due to the fact that wages in the U.S. have been stagnant for years, to the point that most people in the US today cannot afford healthcare without government handouts

A day for celebration indeed.

wormie_sl said:
And that is because you claimed european countries are full of slaves. Basically shit like that is fucking retarded and only deserves derision and laughter.
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No, I didn't. European countries largely have mixed economies. There are some free market aspects, some socialist aspects, etc, just like the U.S.

Creslin wrote:
But enjoy the for-profit kleptocracy, and the fact that you spend almost as much on medicare + medicaid as less corrupt countries spend on insuring the entire population cradle to grave.
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I responded:
You seem to equate being for-profit with corruption.This is socialist sheep thinking. For-profit is only corruption in a slave society. In free societies, where men exchange goods and services in the market according to their ability, kept orderly with minimal government regulation, the highest quality services will be found at the lowest possible price.

In socialist slave societies, government bureaucrats ration healthcare services to the masses. Their incentive is to reduce costs; quality of service is a secondary concern; there is no financial incentive to provide a high quality service."
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Which country did I call a socialist slave country? I made off topic comments about socialist slave countries, in response to what I interpreted as Creslin's attack on free market capitalism; these comments were well segregated from my comments about healthcare in the UK. When I think of a socialist country, I think of the USSR, or pre-1980 China, or Cuba. Not the UK, France, Sweden, etc. As I responded to Eomer, I was not accusing the UK of being a socialist slave country; nor do I even consider the UK to be primarily socialist.

If you, Eomer, or whoever else wish to take my off-topic comments out of context, I cannot stop you. But your interpretation does not reflect reality.
 
Burnem Wizfyre

Burnem Wizfyre

Log Wizard
12,190
20,830
frqkjt_sl said:
I wrote in my very first post today, that if you live in an area with already high healtcare costs, you may see some net benefit from ACA when factoring in subsidies. This really just means you are relatively (to previous generations) poor in an area with high cost of living, likely due to the fact that wages in the U.S. have been stagnant for years, to the point that most people in the US today cannot afford healthcare without government handouts

A day for celebration indeed.



No, I didn't. European countries largely have mixed economies. There are some free market aspects, some socialist aspects, etc, just like the U.S.

Creslin wrote:

I responded:


Which country did I call a socialist slave country? I made off topic comments about socialist slave countries, in response to what I interpreted as Creslin's attack on free market capitalism; these comments were well segregated from my comments about healthcare in the UK. When I think of a socialist country, I think of the USSR, or pre-1980 China, or Cuba. Not the UK, France, Sweden, etc. As I responded to Eomer, I was not accusing the UK of being a socialist slave country; nor do I even consider the UK to be primarily socialist.

If you, Eomer, or whoever else wish to take my off-topic comments out of context, I cannot stop you. But your interpretation does not reflect reality.
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No one took shit out of context you dumb ass, you do realize people have the ability to scroll up to see exactly what you said right?
 
F

frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
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BurnemWizfyre_sl said:
No one took shit out of context you dumb ass, you do realize people have the ability to scroll up to see exactly what you said right?
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Um, I quoted exactly what I wrote - go back and read it. I used copy and paste. It is Eomer who said that I was calling Europeon slave countries. I was not writing about European countries, nor did I ever claim they are socialist/slaves. I was defending the notion of for-profit enterprise.

I wrote:
"You seem to equate being for-profit with corruption. This is socialist sheep thinking. For-profit is only corruption in a slave society. "
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BurnemWizfyre_sl said:
Haha editing out his stupidity, fanaskin fucking jr with the edits lol.
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If I edited that post, it was several hours ago. Not sure how, but if you like, I will provide proof. I did not edit it to hide anything, and I stand by my remarks, although they were off topic and derailed the thread from the discussion of economic impact of ACA.

So far, no one has bothered to contend my main point much: the damage of ACA to American middle class. There's been plenty personal attacks - I have been called a racist (not sure why), a liar (I posted proof of my plan), etc.

edit: if you want to begin educating yourself, I provided several good links:
The non-recovery of the U.S. economy

America??Ts Sinking Middle Class - NYTimes.com
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
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You're in VA? ACA can hit $250/mo presubsidy there from what I just ran... And 40% subsidy or so to beat your plan is around $70k or less IIRC.

And if it doesn't require the account it's not a HSA, you can deposit to an HSA up to 5 times the deductible tax free IIRC, but every single one I ever saw, and being in HR across 3 states with over 1k employees under my mantle I've dealt with TONS and never seen one thAt either didn't drop you into the closest PPO or penalized you for not maintaining the HSA minimums.

And if it is VA it definitely has the latter, since I have my books on VA plans since I was gearing up to open VA locations when my health failed on me.

And regardless HSA isn't a PPO the comparison is apples and oranges. My dental insurance costs half of my Medicare, and it's a medical insurance too, rabblerabble.
 
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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
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Vaclav_sl said:
And if it doesn't require the account it's not a HSA, you can deposit to an HSA up to 5 times the deductible tax free IIRC, but every single one I ever saw, and being in HR across 3 states with over 1k employees under my mantle I've dealt with TONS and never seen one thAt either didn't drop you into the closest PPO or penalized you for not maintaining the HSA minimums.

And regardless HSA isn't a PPO the comparison is apples and oranges. My dental insurance costs half of my Medicare, and it's a medical insurance too, rabblerabble.
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OK, so you have some experience with group market plans in another state. This is an individual plan. Pre-ACA, what experience did you have with individual market health insurance? They are quite different.

Yes, the Lumenos plan is a PPO - I have yet to find a single doctor or hospital in my state that is not 'in-network'. I am penalized for going out of network, but this really doesn't happen. I don't see being PPO as a negative - I can choose any doctor in the huge network, and can see a specialist without getting a referral. The alternative was some shitty HMO. **I don't recall comparing an HSA to a PPO - my Anthem Lumenos plan is a PPO. The

There is no HSA minimum. I never set it up even; it is optional. I have used my insurance with no penalties at time of service - I checked the itemized bills. Anthem doumentation since ~2012 states Lumenos has no lifetime maximum. My monthly premiums have also never reflected any kind of penalty. I have called Anthem customer service many times, regarding premiums and claims, and also at the end of 2013 to renew my plan for 2014. There has never been any mention of the HSA. It's nothing more than an account at a bank where I can store some money to use for only a few purposes, allowing me to save on taxes.

I am honestly astounded at your persistence here. It's apparent that there is nothing I can say that will convince you. The plan details are available from google if you don't believe me - this plan was actually offered as I stated. I provided evidence in the form of scanned letters and screen shots that I actually have the plan, and the premium is $157, just like I said. My SS showed the 0% co-insurance and $1500 deductible.

It's the Anthem BCBS Lumenos plan.: 0% co-insurance, $1500 deductible,comprehensivemedical, no lifetime maximum (~2 million before ACA), and I pay $157 because I was allowed to extend my pre-ACA plan another year.

Here, again, is a link:

http://www.anthem.com/cdhp/oh/f1/s3/...p&state=oh_ind

Notice the list of comprehensive services.
 
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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
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BurnemWizfyre_sl said:
Looks more like a fanaskin alt with all his editing hours after the fact.
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What are you claiming I edited to save face? How can I check the time a post was last edited? I will take a screen shot and post here.
Again, I wrote:
"You seem to equate being for-profit with corruption. This is socialist sheep thinking. For-profit is only corruption in a slave society. "
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There was no claim that a current European country is a slave country. However, I would characterize the life of the typical serf in socialist countries as pre-1980 China or the USSR as slavery. I was accusing Creslin of socialist thinking. Straight?
 
D

Disp_sl

shitlord
1,544
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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
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Disp_sl said:
What the fuck are you talking about Tad? $70k household income is as middle class as it comes.
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America??Ts Sinking Middle Class - NYTimes.com
It concluded that the middle class has become a much more exclusive club.Even two-earner families making almost $81,000 in 2008 - substantially more than the family median of about $60,000 reported by the Census - would have a much tougher time acquiring the attributes of the middle class than in 1990.

The incomes of these types of families actually rose by a fifth between 1990 and 2008, according to the report. They were more educated and worked more hours, on average, and had children at a later age. Still, that was no match for the 56 percent jump in the cost of housing, the 155 percent leap in out-of-pocket spending on health care and the double-digit increase in the cost of college.
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It's called inflation and wage stagnation. Take a middle income family today. Consider their purchasing power. It is substantially less than the purchasing power of middle income families in the 90's, despite working harder and having fewer children.

It really depends, if you consider middle class to be just the middle earners, then even there would still be a 'middle class' even if everyone became dirt poor tomorrow.

If you consider 'middle class' to be a standard of living, it is another story.

Arbitrary_sl said:
I am instantly and irrevocably bored with you and everything you have to say about any topic. Stop.
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I am responding to other posters. It's nice you have an opinion, but yeah. Sorry if you don't like the conversation we're having? Not my problem.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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You're a pretty extreme outlier then frx - from what the average policy in your state is quoted at for an individual policy, like yours - they're quoting $332.58 from the Ohio Lt. Gov. in her statement on why the ACA should be repealed.

It goes onto continue to say "The administration's Sept. 25 report says the cheapest plan on the Ohio exchange for a 27-year-old would be $131, without subsidies. That's a state-wide average for a catastrophic plan; a bronze-level plan would be $177 on average for that age group. Meanwhile, a family of four would pay $768 per month on average for a silver-level plan in Ohio - again, before any subsidies. If that family had an income of $50,000, it could pay $282 for the same plan, or less if it chose a lower level of coverage."

Again, about your very own state, something smells very fishy about your story compared to the data directly out there and very attributable. (And mind you the pre-ACA numbers used are being used by people AGAINST IT that are looking for the best old numbers - so they should be skewed positive and yours is half the rate of their average OH policy...)

Spinning Premium Ratestowards the lower half for the OH bit...

Also last I checked to be deemed "comprehensive" many things missing from your list are required - cancer, dialysis and PT are three that I'm 99% sure should be in a comprehensive package that appear to be absent from everything I can see of that plan. Just as an FYI "catastrophic plans" look pretty damn similar to that, and no mention of the lifetime limit or that it was removed in there. (And $2m is a VERY odd one to have had)
 
D

Disp_sl

shitlord
1,544
1
frqkjt_sl said:
America??Ts Sinking Middle Class - NYTimes.com


It's called inflation and wage stagnation. Take a middle income family today. Consider their purchasing power. It is substantially less than the purchasing power of middle income families in the 90's, despite working harder and having fewer children.

It really depends, if you consider middle class to be just the middle earners, then even there would still be a 'middle class' even if everyone became dirt poor tomorrow.

If you consider 'middle class' to be a standard of living, it is another story.



I am responding to other posters. It's nice you have an opinion, but yeah. Sorry if you don't like the conversation we're having? Not my problem.
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What does buying power have to do with anything? We're talking about the average family income, and $70,000 is nearly 40% higher than the median U.S. household income. Their buying power is completely irrelevant to the topic.
 
F

frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
Vaclav_sl said:
... something smells very fishy about your story compared to the data directly out there and very attributable. ...
Also last I checked to be deemed "comprehensive" many things missing from your list are required - cancer, dialysis and PT are three that I'm 99% sure should be in a comprehensive package that appear to be absent from everything I can see of that plan. Just as an FYI "catastrophic plans" look pretty damn similar to that, and no mention of the lifetime limit or that it was removed in there. (And $2m is a VERY odd one to have had)
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A bronze level plan has like 40% coinsurance and a much higher deductible, of course it is cheaper. I'm compared what I consider to be the BEST pre-ACA Anthem plan to the best post-ACA Anthem plan. If you want to compare the best pre-ACA plan to a shitty post-ACA plan, what exactly are you trying to prove?

Anthem has the best PPO in this area - everyone accepts them. I assume other providers are offering lower cost plans partly due to a smaller/more restrictive network. This is just another way of substituting lower quality products to account for decline in American purchasing power. When I get sick, I want to go to the best hospital in my area, and have access to the best doctors. This was very affordable for a healthy, young person before ACA, now it is not.
I checked this on healthcare.gov just now:
Anthem Gold DirectAccess - ccac
$349/mo, $1250 deductible, $5000 out of pocket max, and the schedule of benefits include significant co-payments even after the deductible is met.

Compare that to $157, $1500 deductible, $1500 out of pocket max, and after deductible no copayments.
http://www.anthem.com/cdhp/oh/f1/s3/...p&state=oh_ind

How exactly am I distorting premium rates? I took the rate off healthcare.gov like 10 minutes ago. This isn't hard to check, go to healthcare.gov, enter Ohio, 30 years old, income high enough to not qualify for subsidies, and see for yourself. The Anthem plan is $349/mo.

Don't use secondary sources - they're all bullshitting. Check yourself. $349, up from $157, with higher out of pocket costs post-ACA. I posted proof of my $157 premium, and healthcare.gov shows $349? What the fuck is fishy exactly?

As for cancer treatments, etc. Are those not done in hospitals? Covered: inpatient and outpatient services. At the bottom of that brochure, they list things that are not covered. I am comfortable with everything listed. If I need healthcare above $1500, it's there.
 
F

frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
Disp_sl said:
What does buying power have to do with anything? We're talking about the average family income, and $70,000 is nearly 40% higher than the median U.S. household income. Their buying power is completely irrelevant to the topic.
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Did you even read my post? Defining middle class by average earnings is a bad way to define middle class. Otherwise, you'd have to say an average earner in some poor as shit country is middle class, despite that they live in a mud hut and don't have enough food.
**edit - and this is exactly what you are doing. You are using median income, a measure of central tendency, as a reference point to define 'middle class'.

Middle class is a standard of living. You achieve a certain standard of living through purchasing power. Purchasing power of Americans has been steadily decreasing, to the point that average income earners today no longer enjoy the standard of living that 'middle class' average income earners in the US had in past years.

You make the point that $70,000 is well above the median income - indeed, Americans are getting poor. Yes, I am claiming that many middle income earners in America today are not middle class, as they cannot afford a middle class lifestyle due to decrease in their purchasing power.

I cannot make it more clear. If you don't understand at this point, I guess we cannot contine the conversation.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Frk: ACA plans cover cancer and rehab and dialysis and more that yours doesn't.... apples and oranges...
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
So he PMs me their list which includes a "above our determined cost" which for cancer and dialysis are listed on their website as $20k max benefit to somehow d disprove me. Amusing how strong the stupid is in this one line is right there for him but can't fathom it would cut off other things because the category caps are atrocious.

Hilarious, I'm done - he's getting worse than Lumie.
 
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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
*edited post - I found info needed.

Vaclav;636010 said:
So he PMs me their list which includes a "above our determined cost" which for cancer and dialysis are listed on their website as $20k max benefit to somehow d disprove me. Amusing how strong the stupid is in this one line is right there for him but can't fathom it would cut off other things because the category caps are atrocious.

Here is the list I sent in PM

What the Ohio Individual Lumenos
HSA plans do not cover.
Lumenos HSA plans don't provide benefits for
services, supplies or charges having to do with
preexisting conditions (see "What's a preexisting
condition?"); private duty nursing; maternity services,
unless optional maternity rider is purchased; experi-
mental or investigative treatment; dental and vision,
except as spelled out in your contract; charges
greater than the maximum allowable amount
(charges exceeding the amount Anthem recognizes
for services); care provided by a member of your
family; treatment that's primarily intended to
improve your appearance; weight loss programs or
treatment of obesity; hearing aids; eyeglasses or
contact lenses; radial keratotomy or keratomileusis
or excimer laser photo; artificial insemination,
fertilization, infertility drugs or sterilization reversal;
sex transformation surgery; custodial care; artificial
and mechanical hearts; workers' compensation; TMJ
and Craniomandibular Joint Disorders and services
we determine aren't medically necessary.

There is no cap on cancer treatments list. Vaclav, I am willing to grant you are not stupid and not lying. What am I missing? Where do you see cancer treatments are limited to 20k?

You made this statement, saying you 'found it on their website' but provided no link. I have done by best to substantiate every claim I have made with evidence. I ask only the same respect.
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