Health Care Thread

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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
Vaclav_sl said:
...speaking as an informed person.
... projected cost of $300b a year. If a worst case scenario of $100b is terrible what is three times that? Christ, man.
PS the more sick an infirm there are the worse our productivity will be, a healthy nation is an economically stronger nation which of course generates more taxes in the end... you see the point I hope.
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LOL. Before I wrote that, I said "I'm not an expert on this" and furthermore, I asked after 'What is wrong with this?' I admitted right there I could be wrong, and asked for feedback. Thanks for the info, but why don't you go away and come back when you can be less of an arrogant prick?

I think I have presented a strong case that we cannot afford the ACA, and the ACA is not the right reform. I provide sources for everytihng I say. You have uttered nothing against any of it, nor even acknowledged it. Instead, you accuse and mock, and cherry pick shit like this, where I intended debate anyway.

This case can still be valid even if I am my suggested alternative doesn't work out.

My suggestion was basically to just expand Medicaid, as ACA has allowed for anyway. So why is expanding Medicaid without ACA 300 billion, and expanding Medicaid with ACA 100 billion?

Hidden taxes. You cannot seem to comprehend that insurance co's, paying subsidies will pass these costs on to those who purchase their services. Net receivers of subsidies are not in this group. Who is? Middle class and entrepreneurs; perhaps large businesses are also in this group - they can compensate by further wage stagnation, in the face of inflation. You do not believe wages in the US have been stagnant aleady? Go educate yourself.

As for taking care of the sick and infirm: is it not possible for you to believe that someone can oppose the ACA, and yet still believe reform was needed to help care for poor and disabled? I AGREE WITH YOU, but I belive the ACA is not the right reform.

Please respond to my post, with the IMF analysis indicating the US fiscal gap, even with ACA, is huge and requires major cuts. We cannot afford the ACA.
 
Burnem Wizfyre

Burnem Wizfyre

Log Wizard
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frqkjt_sl said:
LOL. Before I wrote that, I said "I'm not an expert on this" and furthermore, I asked after 'What is wrong with this?' I admitted right there I could be wrong, and asked for feedback. Thanks for the info, but why don't you go away and come back when you can be less of an arrogant prick?

I think I have presented a strong case that we cannot afford the ACA, and the ACA is not the right reform. I provide sources for everytihng I say. You have uttered nothing against any of it, nor even acknowledged it. Instead, you accuse and mock, and cherry pick shit like this, where I intended debate anyway.

This case can still be valid even if I am my suggested alternative doesn't work out.

My suggestion was basically to just expand Medicaid, as ACA has allowed for anyway. So why is expanding Medicaid without ACA 300 billion, and expanding Medicaid with ACA 100 billion?

Hidden taxes. You cannot seem to comprehend that insurance co's, paying subsidies will pass these costs on to those who purchase their services. Net receivers of subsidies are not in this group. Who is? Middle class and entrepreneurs; perhaps large businesses are also in this group - they can compensate by further wage stagnation, in the face of inflation. You do not believe wages in the US have been stagnant aleady? Go educate yourself.

As for taking care of the sick and infirm: is it not possible for you to believe that someone can oppose the ACA, and yet still believe reform was needed to help care for poor and disabled? I AGREE WITH YOU, but I belive the ACA is not the right reform.

Please respond to my post, with the IMF analysis indicating the US fiscal gap, even with ACA, is huge and requires major cuts. We cannot afford the ACA.
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Dunning-Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
F

frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
wormie_sl said:
I dont know about evidence and deduction but the comedy is superb. +1.
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Evidence:
IMF report: "Who Will Pay and How"
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2011/wp1172.pdf

the federal government can restore fiscal balance by raising all taxes and cutting all transfer payments immediately and for the indefinite future by 35 percent. ...
and were the IPAB to succeed in curbing healthcare spending growth as provided in the IPAB mandate, reining in the fiscal gap would still require an immediate and permanent increase in all taxes and cut in all transfers of 26 percent.
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Deduction:
We can't afford ACA. But even more, we can't afford to not carry out additional reform.
 
wormie

Asshat wormie

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frqkjt_sl said:
Deduction:
We can't afford ACA. But even more, we can't afford to not carry out additional reform.
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Cut military budget by whatever ACA costs. Boom, we can afford it. Your deductions are pointless.

Additional reforms i agree with. Why not use any of the systems that have been shown to work better and cheaper than ours? Oh thats right, slavery.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
The ACA is averaging a projected cost of $30b a year, the best case generates revenue - are you honestly saying we can't afford to invest something in additional productivity? Keep in mind spending in that way works like trickle down economics of yore - it gets spent productivity rises, extra productivity generates more taxes creating an upward spiral.

And I'd be more likely to be less of a "prick" if I didn't have to keep reiterating the ranges you seem to miss. You want to compare a final rate to a maximized rate, you see +$70 to -$100 and latch onto the latter, ad nauseam - you don't just toss aside and disregard pertinent data and expect to be treated as a rational member of a debate, that's punditry not debate.

I respond in kind to the format presented.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
wormie_sl said:
Cut military budget by whatever ACA costs. Boom, we can afford it. Your deductions are pointless.

Additional reforms i agree with. Why not use any of the systems that have been shown to work better and cheaper than ours? Oh thats right, slavery.
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Yep, somewhere around $400b could be saved by closing overseas bases with no tactical value alone. (Leaving stuff like hospitals and such though and a few hubs)
 
F

frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
Vaclav_sl said:
The ACA is averaging a projected cost of $30b a year, the best case generates revenue - are you honestly saying we can't afford to invest something in additional productivity? Keep in mind spending in that way works like trickle down economics of yore - it gets spent productivity rises, extra productivity generates more taxes creating an upward spiral.

And I'd be more likely to be less of a "prick" if I didn't have to keep reiterating the ranges you seem to miss. You want to compare a final rate to a maximized rate, you see +$70 to -$100 and latch onto the latter, ad nauseam - you don't just toss aside and disregard pertinent data and expect to be treated as a rational member of a debate, that's punditry not debate.

I respond in kind to the format presented.
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For premium costs, I always compared premium pre-ACA of a middle class citizen with the premium post-ACA (no subsidies) of the same middle class person. Median income gets subsidy, but they are not middle class. I have defended this position with evidence - see my NYtimes article, and discussion. You never responded.

+70 to -100: I took into account the positive cases. I wrote
What does it tell you that a median earning individual needs a government handout in order to afford healthcare? Doesn't sound middle class to me. Median income is no longer enough in the United States - the middle class disappears from the bottom up.
Hard choices are coming - as the report says, even if ACA reduces costs.
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As the middle class shrinks, the base of people who can pay for the subsidies through higher insurance premiums and through existing taxes falls. I further argue that the ACA, by targeting middle class/entrepreneurs, accelerates this process. You have not responded.

When I brought up passing 100 billion in costs to future generation, it was in response to your incredible arrogance that we should not be concerned with such a minor issue this. I did not inply that this is the only possible result of the ACA, as you accuse.
Vaclav: and even $100b in the scale of our budget is laughably small
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If the actual number turns out different, fine.

You either cannot understand or refuse to acknowledge my argument, instead coming up with strawman after strawman. You say you respond in kind, but you do not. I provide evidence and deduce from it. You make counter statements based on no evidence that we can see, and deride.

**edit: Military Cuts -
This is a fine suggestion, and no doubt there will be. As I said with the IMF doc.-link, we have hard choices coming. As our wealth continues to decline, we can only hope that such cuts can keep pace.

There is also the issue that a great part of our wealth is based on the dollar being the world reserve currency, although increasingly less so. An interesting topic is, how does maint. of the dollar as reserve currency relate to our military capabilities.
 
BoldW

BoldW

Molten Core Raider
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frq, I don't think you understand. Burnem is being beyond civil with you. Check his post history if you disagree.
 
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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
BoldW_sl said:
frq, I don't think you understand. Burnem is being beyond civil with you. Check his post history if you disagree.
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The problem here is this: there is a greater burden in defending against a false accusation than there is in making one.

For example, Vaclav made the claim that my health insurance only covers cancer treatments up to $20k, and that he found this information in a link I myself sent him. (with the implication that I am incompetent) This was false, as he admitted after; there was not a single mention of cancer treatments in the link I sent.

However, in order to get that admission, I had to post long, boring details. Who wants to read that? It's much more fun to just go with the accusation and make fun of the dumb person, regardless of the truth of the matter.

That is how Burnem operates. Thus, whether or not he is being civil is not really a concern of mine.
 
Gavinmad

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
43,737
52,284
frqkjt_sl said:
The problem here is this: there is a greater burden in defending against a false accusation than there is in making one.

For example, Vaclav made the claim that my health insurance only covers cancer treatments up to $20k, and that he found this information in a link I myself sent him. (with the implication that I am incompetent) This was false, as he admitted after; there was not a single mention of cancer treatments in the link I sent.

However, in order to get that admission, I had to post long, boring details. Who wants to read that? It's much more fun to just go with the accusation and make fun of the dumb person, regardless of the truth of the matter.

That is how Burnem operates. Thus, whether or not he is being civil is not really a concern of mine.
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Burnem is actually one of the biggest shitposters on the entire forum. He gets away with it because he copies Duppin and just picks on easy targets.
 
Burnem Wizfyre

Burnem Wizfyre

Log Wizard
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Gavinrad_sl said:
Burnem is actually one of the biggest shitposters on the entire forum. He gets away with it because he copies Duppin and just picks on easy targets.
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I don't attempt to have conversations with retards, I just point out their stupidity and remind them that they are stupid because apparently people in their lives have failed to inform them just how fucking stupid they are and someone needs to point it out to them. I have no idea how you people can still even have conversations with Merlin or Tad and people like him, its fucking pointless, call them stupid and move the fuck on.
 
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frqkjt_sl

shitlord
199
0
BurnemWizfyre_sl said:
I don't attempt to have conversations with retards, I just point out their stupidity and remind them that they are stupid because apparently people in their lives have failed to inform them just how fucking stupid they are and someone needs to point it out to them. I have no idea how you people can still even have conversations with Merlin or Tad and people like him, its fucking pointless, call them stupid and move the fuck on.
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We have a real life Monty Python character here.
Shes a witch! - YouTube
 
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