Hearthstone

Gavinmad · Jun 7, 2016

Angelwatch_sl said:
With that said I think there are about 4 cards from Whispers that are straight up mistakes. Flamewreathed Faceless, Darkshire Councilman, Call of the Wild and, to a lesser extent, Thing Below.

Notice how all 4 cards you mentioned are class cards? That's the biggest flaw of Whispers. They printed neutrals that were way too powerful in GvG, TGT had a couple standouts but in general was a pretty weak expansion.

Whispers has pretty much complete trash for neutrals. Seriously, look at them. Nobody plays any neutrals from Whispers aside from the mandatory C'thun neutrals if you're running a C'thun deck. They instead tried to focus all the power of the set on class cards, and their results were all over the place. Mage, Paladin, Priest, and Rogue got shafted hard, Druid and Warrior they actually got about right, Hunter, Shaman, and Warlock got some ridiculous bullshit. Shaman would probably still be top tier in this meta even without thing and flamewreathed. Zoo would probably still be top tier without councilman. Hunter has bad matchups with the most popular decks on the ladder which is why it isn't top tier, but in a vacuum call of the wild is one of the most overpowered cards to ever be released.

attog_sl said:
Does anybody have a hunter list that can beat shaman or warlock? I have a hunter daily and I can't get a win to save my life.

Take a normal midrange list, tech in unleash, explosive trap, and luck.

Column_sl · Jun 7, 2016

You can play any of the mid range and do decent.

If you dont want to play explosive, you can just play the curve, and let the deck play for you

Mures · Jun 7, 2016

^ That is what I'm running and just won 2 in a row for a quest, except I took out n'zoth and added a 2nd grub, swapped 1 flame juggler for dire wolf, and swapped freezing trap for explosive. That deck list has been around for awhile so literally everyone knows its freezing trap. I found it rare you could use it and get value; likewise when I'm playing against hunter it is rare the freezing trap actually does anything useful. People don't expect the explosive anymore, but I would run that or even bear trap over freezing in this meta regardless.

And I mean, you're not going to be favored over shaman, but I find it to be a pretty even matchup.

Gavinmad · Jun 7, 2016

Tempostorm says hunter is favored over midrange shaman, and while I don't always agree with their rankings, their matchup analysis is usually accurate. Granted, shaman has seen a pretty significant shift towards lists that are hybrids of aggro and midrange, so it's really hard to predict what you're going to be facing.

As for shaman itself, after pondering a bit, I think the most broken card for them atm is actually totem golem. It's almost impossible to answer when played on curve, it reduces the cost of thing, it gets buffed by valiant, and it's one of the most obnoxiously unfair plays in the game when a totemic puts one into play.

Neki · Jun 7, 2016

The first month of expansion was fun as usual with everyone trying new decks and stuff. This month, the fun factor has dropped off a cliff with Shamans everywhere crushing everyone in their path. You know it's a problem when it is nearly mandatory for other decks to have to tech in ooze/harrison to slow down the Shaman rape train.

As a rogue player, it is not fun to be queuing into shaman after shaman after shaman after zoo after shaman after zoo for 6 games straight. It's frustrating at best. I just logged off after that.

At this point in time, it is proven that Blizzard has no idea how to create a balanced online game and the idea that Overwatch will be a serious competitive game in the long run is laughable to me.

Neki · Jun 7, 2016

Twilight Sparkle_sl said:
Tempostorm says hunter is favored over midrange shaman, and while I don't always agree with their rankings, their matchup analysis is usually accurate. Granted, shaman has seen a pretty significant shift towards lists that are hybrids of aggro and midrange, so it's really hard to predict what you're going to be facing.

As for shaman itself, after pondering a bit, I think the most broken card for them atm is actually totem golem. It's almost impossible to answer when played on curve, it reduces the cost of thing, it gets buffed by valiant, and it's one of the most obnoxiously unfair plays in the game when a totemic puts one into play.

It is fucking rage inducing when a totemic summons a totem golem. If I don't have coin/prep+evis or backstab+si7 in hand when golem is played on curve then it is GG for me. That is 2 cards to answer for 1 card. Especially when they follow it up with spirit wolfs and flame tongue totem.

Gavinmad · Jun 7, 2016

Haha staring down megalethal against zoo. Pop a 10 spell Yogg. Clears the board aside from leaving a wounded defender of argus which gets ganged up. Later in the match I end up getting lethal the turn after nourish draws me double argus.

Neki · Jun 7, 2016

They really need to have a card like cheap Sludge Belcher and more defensive cards in the next adventure to slow down all this aggro. Fuck, I miss Belcher now. They had a defensive card in corrupted annoy-a-tron this expansion but no one plays it because it is too fucking slow even at 5 mana since you are nearly dead by then against shamans.

Mures · Jun 7, 2016

Twilight Sparkle_sl said:
As for shaman itself, after pondering a bit, I think the most broken card for them atm is actually totem golem. It's almost impossible to answer when played on curve, it reduces the cost of thing, it gets buffed by valiant, and it's one of the most obnoxiously unfair plays in the game when a totemic puts one into play.

Yeah, but tuskar himself is really shitty, more often you'll get a worthless 0/2 totem and you paid 3 mana for a 3/2.

Gavinmad · Jun 7, 2016

and reduced the cost of thing by 1. And you have a 3/7 chance of getting something other than a basic totem. At worst you're paying 3 mana for a 3/2 and a free hero power. Aside from how broken a free golem is, getting a free flametongue or mana tide is pretty nifty.

Ravishing · Jun 7, 2016

Neki_sl said:
They really need to have a card like cheap Sludge Belcher and more defensive cards in the next adventure to slow down all this aggro. Fuck, I miss Belcher now. They had a defensive card in corrupted annoy-a-tron this expansion but no one plays it because it is too fucking slow even at 5 mana since you are nearly dead by then against shamans.

5 mana seems to be the slot where aggro decks avoid taking the card (belcher/healbot). Cards that are anti-aggro and cheaper would just find themselves in aggro decks, too.

Aggro is never going away. That's a good thing. I would surely hate for every game to be decided on who nags their C'Thun first. That meta is probably more frustrating... playing a great game just to get out RNG'd in the end.

I think biggest issue is board clears don't match the ability to refill the board. Clears are way too expensive. It's been a constant issue in this game. If board clears were cheaper than the deathrattle/sticky meta would never have been so bad. Right now it's a problem drawing clears in time, then gaining initiative after the clear. With expensive clears like Flamestrike, Blizzard, Twisting Nether, or even Nova, Brawl, ExEvil you rarely have enough extra mana to play a decent minion (6+ mana).

Doubt Blizz ever changes their mindset on it, but imo that's biggest problem. My decklist above has 6 AoE clears/dmg... but they are all rather expensive, except doomsayer. Even with so many clears it's not always enough or it's just too late.

Valishar · Jun 7, 2016

There are decent anti-aggro cards they could print, just give them the equivalent of a wall in mtg, a 2 mana 3/5 taunt which cannot attack would be a great enabler for control decks.

In fact the only class with effective taunts is warrior, and is it any wonder they are one of the few viable classes?

Ravishing · Jun 7, 2016

valishar_sl said:
There are decent anti-aggro cards they could print, just give them the equivalent of a wall in mtg, a 2 mana 3/5 taunt which cannot attack would be a great enabler for control decks.

2 mana 3/5 with taunt that can't attack would be insane for Zoo/Shaman/Hunter too.

Zoo started out by running the 0/4 shieldbearer simply as a wall.

Valishar · Jun 7, 2016

That cannot attack? Ancient watcher seeing a lot of play? You can buff the 0/4 and it can attack, ancient watcher can't.

Ravishing · Jun 7, 2016

valishar_sl said:
That cannot attack?

*edited my post to include that* but yes. Anything to protect their other minions, that's cheap, will be OP. Zoo still runs Voidwalker for example.

valishar_sl said:
Ancient watcher seeing a lot of play? You can buff the 0/4 and it can attack, ancient watcher can't.

Ancient Watcher doesn't have taunt. 2 card combos can't be relied upon. Aggro wants 1 card tiny shits to throw on the board constantly.

Valishar · Jun 7, 2016

Yeah but if zoo is spending a turn playing a roadblock, it's okay. They never prioritize taunts with drawbacks, they never ran deathlord for example, and chow was rarely in zoo. But If control priest has essentially bought one or two turns with no face damage, that's huge for them.

Edit: probably kills rogue though to have a huge early taunt. Maybe another drawback like deathlord?

Ravishing · Jun 7, 2016

Chow heals opponent for 5 and Imp/Voidwalker/PO/Abusives are already a lot of 1 drops.

Deathlord is a good point but 1 less attack, 1 more mana, and give opponent a minion, not the best imo. Zoo want board control, so dropping that random minion on board could be a big deal. A 3/5 taunt for 2 mana will trade with most 1-3 mana minions for dominant early game while you flood board with tiny shit. A 1/3 is already annoying enough for most control decks to break through to get to the juggler/councilman/wolf/etc. Making you get through a 3/5 would be stupidly strong.

DiddleySquat · Jun 7, 2016

The fact that the attacker decides where to deal damage is why aggro (and tempo in arena) are so strong. MtG has blocking, which opens a whole world of tactical possibilities, of which HS is starved.

Valishar · Jun 7, 2016

Unless it had the drawback- Deathrattle: Destroy all YOUR creatures. Zoo would never touch that card, control would run it in a heartbeat.

Neki · Jun 7, 2016

valishar_sl said:
Probably kills rogue though to have a huge early taunt. Maybe another drawback like deathlord?

Rogues absolutely need a early taunt since we don't have any in class healing. We have to rely on farseers for healing at these moment. There are no good early taunts to push away damage from face. We can deal somewhat with early taunts such as shadow strike, backstab, evis and sap.

In fact, before deathlord was rotated out, the only two classes that used the card was priests and rogues (as far as I remembered).

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