Hearthstone

Enzee · Sep 5, 2017

Oh, I'm not saying they try to implement changes to copy MTG, I'm simply pointing out that the core mechanics of the game create the tilt that we all bitch about. The basic gameplay lends itself to these situations and it's very difficult to design cards that don't continue that trend.

As far as actual changes I think they should implement, I've never understand why they didn't just make arena something like 'pick 35, cut 5 to make a deck of 30' as a hybrid of the way sealed/draft works in MTG. This would soften the impact of taking a few 'synergy' cards that don't end up working out, and make it a more fun and skill testing format. No one likes picking a servant of kalimos/blazecaller 1st and then not getting offered a single elemental the rest of the draft. If you got to pick 35 total cards and then cut 5, you could cut that subpar card since you ended up with 0 elementals and not feel bad about it. The power level and consistency of decks would go up, but it'd be across the board for the most part. Might need to do some further balance tweaks, but I think it'd be worth it. It's better then just auto losing some matches because you didn't draw an early drop and they did.

It's sort of the same idea path as a sideboard in constructed. They make these tech cards that are super powerful in niche situations, which makes them useless in others. Or, they make them too good on their own, and then they are back breaking when played against the right decks.

Really, tech cards like golakka crawler, gluttonous ooze, etc.. illustrate the point we've been talking about. These cards can be game winning IF you just happen to queue against the right deck, but you have no way to know if you will beforehand. Sure, at some ranks maybe a certain deck is upwards of 70% of the field, but that still means 30% of the time you are picking wrong. It's an educated guessing game is all.

Enzee · Sep 5, 2017

Oh, also

Ravishing said:
Yea, more actions do make it more skillful, but it's no guarantee the game will be more fun. People will still complain. "Omg he Poly'd my Antonidas before I could get a single fireball!"

Sure.. some people would still complain (they make this exact complaint in MTG) but it's less then the amount, and type, of complaining I see about HS. In this example, you would try to bait out the poly with other minions, or have a way to protect the antonidas if you are playing a combo deck based around him. You would figure out, over the course of the game, exactly how many removal spells your opponent has left in hand. Or, you'd plan the turn sequences to force them to use all their mana at some point, which is when you'd then resolve your combo. The point is, you have options. If you just run your key minion out with no protection and it gets removed, that's your fault. It's not up to random chance as much.

It's the difference between chess and rolling a dice, but along a spectrum. You can't have the better player win 100% of the time or the worse players get discouraged and stop playing. MTG understood that, that's why they have never tried to eliminate mana flood/mana screw completely. That said, I think there is room to move HS along the spectrum towards chess a bit without making it completely based on skill.

Vaclav · Sep 5, 2017

I really wish it was true that they could, Enzee.

But realistically they can't, the player base really wants simple.

Ravishing · Sep 5, 2017

Enzee said:
As far as actual changes I think they should implement, I've never understand why they didn't just make arena something like 'pick 35, cut 5 to make a deck of 30' as a hybrid of the way sealed/draft works in MTG. This would soften the impact of taking a few 'synergy' cards that don't end up working out, and make it a more fun and skill testing format. No one likes picking a servant of kalimos/blazecaller 1st and then not getting offered a single elemental the rest of the draft. If you got to pick 35 total cards and then cut 5, you could cut that subpar card since you ended up with 0 elementals and not feel bad about it. The power level and consistency of decks would go up, but it'd be across the board for the most part. Might need to do some further balance tweaks, but I think it'd be worth it. It's better then just auto losing some matches because you didn't draw an early drop and they did.

I'd like Arena a whole lot more if they showed you all 90 and you built a deck from them.
They could generate miniature "collections" of 15 pages (90 cards), to flip through and build a deck from.
As of now, I only use arena for casual play when bored of constructed.
I think doing my suggestion could turn it into a fairly competitive format for deckbuilders.
As of now, if you enjoy deckbuilding, you seldom get to show off your skills since netdecking is so strong.
Arena would be the best deckbuilders and constructed would be the best meta players.

brekk · Sep 5, 2017

Brand said:
Jade is a problem, but not nearly the shit show that will result when Priest is ascendant. Level 10-15 is a shitshow of control priest variants.

I've been playing primarily Jade Druid (no DK or fandral) and my primary issue has been Exodia Mage. I just can't deal damage fast enough before their combo goes off, especially with AOE freezes, Doomsayers, Ice Block, Ice Barrier. It doesn't help that all the mage discover cards needed for the quest just help make more copies of their delay tools. Games just become an inevitability to my loss, I honestly don't know how any deck other then aggro deals with Exodia.

Ravishing · Sep 5, 2017

brekk said:
I've been playing primarily Jade Druid (no DK or fandral) and my primary issue has been Exodia Mage. I just can't deal damage fast enough before their combo goes off, especially with AOE freezes, Doomsayers, Ice Block, Ice Barrier. It doesn't help that all the mage discover cards needed for the quest just help make more copies of their delay tools. Games just become an inevitability to my loss, I honestly don't know how any deck other then aggro deals with Exodia.

That's why Exodia has become almost relevent, because it can shit on Jades....

But they lose hard to aggro.

Best way to beat Exodia is to always go face and put as much pressure as possible. They develop no substantial board threats, never trade into their guys. You won't take lethal damage anytime soon from their little minions.

I've won more often then not with my Control Paladin, as slow as it is, simply because I always go face. It does help that I can discover Eye for an Eye which is instant win if I can get them to 1 health. Not having to pop block 2x helps a ton.

(also helps a ton that I can deal 46 damage with Weapons alone... if I draw them... and have enough turns, freezes don't stop much)

Druid is fast enough that you should be able to apply pressure much much faster than Control paladin.

Swipes go face, UI goes face, hero power goes face, etc.
(No DK means weaker HP to go face with)

Brand · Sep 5, 2017

holy shit, shaman high rollers everywhere

TJT · Sep 5, 2017

Nerfs being tested.

Fireside Gatherings

Origin · Sep 5, 2017

I like the nerfs overall, other than the Spreading Plague nerf. I think that one should have been made to cost 7 mana or to summon smaller taunts. 5 health on them is just too much.

Unfortunately though, let us all usher in the new age of our priest overlords. 15+ minute games of stalling and then overpowered mow down garbage.

slippery · Sep 5, 2017

LOL rip Warrior. Changing Fiery War Axe is so bad for the class, they are so dependent on it to not get destroyed early when playing control. Now they will never be able to catch up before eating shit to aggro.

I know the community has been clamoring for Innervate nerfs, but man I don't know. It's literally what Druid does. This is a huge crush to their tempo, it basically deletes the card I think. It feels like it hurts a lot. I dunno,

I mean you probably run 0 innervate, 2 Mire Keeper, 1 Spreading Plague now. Think about putting an Earthen Scales back in

Brand · Sep 5, 2017

Priest and High Roll Evolve Shammies are fucking laughing at us all.

Gavinmad · Sep 5, 2017

Despite the increased mana cost of Fiery War Axe, we expect that it will still see play—other 3 mana 3/2 weapons, like Eaglehorn Bow, can be found in decks that may not have synergy with the weapon’s card text.

Because even without traps hunter doesn't have a better option than eaglehorn you dumbfucks. jesus christ. Maybe these retarded faggots just need to stop going HAM on pirates instead of fucking over the entire class.

Ravishing · Sep 5, 2017

I didn't expect most of those nerfs. Pretty surprised that Fiery War Axe is going to be worse than other 3/2 weapons by Hunter/Paladin/Rogue. Warrior no longer the premiere weapon class? Strange.

Warleader is an unexpected but good change. Murloc power weakened slightly, probably still playable. Murlocs only good in paladin right now, won't see play once their class murlocs rotate. Maybe other classes get murloc love in future.

I'm ok with the Innervate change, makes you wonder if you should play any at all, but I don't think it's unplayable. Which is a good place. Just like Coin in Rogue. Seeing Druids with no Innervates will be strange. I gotta believe it'll still be played in some decks.

Welcome to the Priest meta.

But my biggest gripe with the current meta was you couldn't even tech for priest due to having to consider Jades, Pirates, Murlocs and Aggro Druid.

All 4 of those decks got hit here.

Can possibly free up some space to tech vs Priest.

Exodia Mage could be more prevalent
Decks with more Healing & Armor are also good vs Priest.
Fatigue Warrior, Control Paladin (with Forbidden Healing), etc.

Priest actually struggle with classes that gain lots of health, or can OTK.
If aggro weakens slightly and Jades are weakened/slower, then some of these fringe decks may jump onto the scene in a big way.

Necrath Evilcraft · Sep 5, 2017

Jade druid will still be near top dog if not top. The only thing that will combat it reasonably well are control decks running geist. Not touching UI at all seems laughable. If nothing else reducing its numbers from 5 to 4 would have been a start.

Ravishing · Sep 5, 2017

Necrath Evilcraft said:
Jade druid will still be near top dog if not top. The only thing that will combat it reasonably well are control decks running geist. Not touching UI at all seems laughable. If nothing else reducing its numbers from 5 to 4 would have been a start.

I don't think a nerf to UI is out of the question, as they've admitted, but the Innervate nerf is the one most pros have clamored for (Reynad). And it makes a heck of a lot of sense to nerf the biggest problem card first and then see how everything plays out. Innervate nerf is a drastic cut to the speed at which Druid can play. Even with UI to draw 5...

Some of the biggest swing turns I've faced is when they can ramp to UI and then Innervate+Innvervate for FOUR more mana to play to do a Swipe or Wrath/Wrath or Hero Power/Wrath, or Jade Spirit.

Just eliminating bullshit like that will be huge, and also eliminating the Innervate+Innervate+UI on 6 mana (turn 4? after some ramp), is also huge.

UI is still a huge swing for sure, but we'll see... Might be a lot more balanced now.

Amzin · Sep 5, 2017

I don't think Jade druid will be affected beyond a rounding error. UI is the culprit there. The fact you could knock everything down from 5 to 4 and it would STILL probably be autoinclude shows how strong it is. But really, they could keep everything at 5 but drop the card draw down to 2 or something and it would be much more fair. Drawing 5 cards on top of everything else is just too strong.

Lightning Lord Rule · Sep 5, 2017

No nerf to Jade Idol.
Health on spreading plague minions untouched. The efficiency on spreading plague wasn't the main problem, idiots!
Ultimate Infestation untouched.
War axe made borderline unplayable, fucking over more than just pirates.
Nerf to hex because "it's in every shaman deck". Well no shit, it's the best removal in the game, not because of mana cost but because it's a transform effect.

The more I see blizzard do balance changes, the more I think that the excellent Un'Goro meta was the fluke exception to Hearthstone's history, and we shouldn't get our hopes up for that sort of environment again

Ravishing · Sep 5, 2017

I'm just happy Flappy birds won't be out turn 1 as frequently. Can still happen if going second, but at least they can't flappy+raven in that instance anymore, either.

Ravishing · Sep 5, 2017

Lightning Lord Rule said:
No nerf to Jade Idol.
Health on spreading plague minions untouched. The efficiency on spreading plague wasn't the main problem, idiots!
Ultimate Infestation untouched.
War axe made borderline unplayable, fucking over more than just pirates.
Nerf to hex because "it's in every shaman deck". Well no shit, it's the best removal in the game, not because of mana cost but because it's a transform effect.

The more I see blizzard do balance changes, the more I think that the excellent Un'Goro meta was the fluke exception to Hearthstone's history, and we shouldn't get our hopes up for that sort of environment again

War Axe will still see play in almost every warrior deck
Hex nerf was out of the blue, but is now comparable to Polymorph, seems fine.

Origin · Sep 5, 2017

I don't know how they calculate their #1, #2, #3 card; like based off what criteria? I wouldn't be surprised if it was "hurr durr hurrs some statisticz!!!" Either way, the fact that UI wasn't touched is ridiculous. But, at the same time, the Innervate nerf touches all druid archetypes - which i am fine with. No more turn 1 Hydras and the like.

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