Hearthstone

Angelwatch

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider
3,053
133
I simply cannot imagine running Mad Scientist Huntard without UTH. It's such an integral card that can clear the opponent's board, ping off a single high threat minion, do a ton of damage to the opponent's face and / or refill your hand.
 
C

Column_sl

shitlord
9,833
7
Heroic Kel Thuzad looks pretty beastly.

So it looks like Freeze Mage for the first Heroic boss, and Priest for Kel Thuzad.
 
Mures

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
The Ancient_sl said:
FTFY.

I'm just surprised that so many reasonably intelligent people can make the same mistake. I feel like The Master would have figured it out eventually had other parties not stepped in to argue incorrectly. I guess I should have explained it more clearly at the beginning, I just felt it was obvious. I'll drop it now though, if people haven't gotten it yet they aren't going to.
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We understand what you are saying, you are just wrong. The gentleman explained it fine here:
The Master_sl said:
No... the 2 mana of the hero power makes up for the fact that it is not costing you a card.

So:

1/1 token costs you a card: 0 mana
1/1 token as a hero power, doesn't cost you a card: 2 mana.

Get an extra card in hand from your deck, costs you a card: 3 mana.
Get an extra card in hand from your deck as a hero power, doesn't cost you a card: 2 mana, 2 life.

Not exact equivalents. But that is the argument. I guess you could make the argument that the Paladin Hero power is essentially gaining you a "free" Wisp card for 2 mana every time you use it.
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The warlock hero power as a card would replace itself and draw you a card, netting you 1 card. The end result (minus the health loss, which the comparison was made because health totals aren't always relevant)is the same between this and arcane intellect, you draw one card. The paladin hero power as a card would not replace itself, you put a 1/1 into play. The only thing you could argue is, similar to what the gentleman said the paladin hero power as a card would be a 2 cost card that put a 0 cost 1/1 into your hand. In that case it replaces itself, netting you one card, but that one card will be a 1/1 every time. Novice engineer does not replace itself with a 1/1 every time, it puts a 1/1 on the board AND replaces itself with a new card, obviously this is not equivalent to paladin hero power.
 
Morrow

Morrow

Trakanon Raider
3,341
948
mures_sl said:
We understand what you are saying, you are just wrong. The gentleman explained it fine here:

The warlock hero power as a card would replace itself and draw you a card, netting you 1 card. The end result (minus the health loss, which the comparison was made because health totals aren't always relevant)is the same between this and arcane intellect, you draw one card. The paladin hero power as a card would not replace itself, you put a 1/1 into play. The only thing you could argue is, similar to what the gentleman said the paladin hero power as a card would be a 2 cost card that put a 0 cost 1/1 into your hand. In that case it replaces itself, netting you one card, but that one card will be a 1/1 every time. Novice engineer does not replace itself with a 1/1 every time, it puts a 1/1 on the board AND replaces itself with a new card, obviously this is not equivalent to paladin hero power.
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This.
 
T

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
mures_sl said:
We understand what you are saying, you are just wrong. The gentleman explained it fine here:

The warlock hero power as a card would replace itself and draw you a card, netting you 1 card. The end result (minus the health loss, which the comparison was made because health totals aren't always relevant)is the same between this and arcane intellect, you draw one card. The paladin hero power as a card would not replace itself, you put a 1/1 into play. The only thing you could argue is, similar to what the gentleman said the paladin hero power as a card would be a 2 cost card that put a 0 cost 1/1 into your hand. In that case it replaces itself, netting you one card, but that one card will be a 1/1 every time. Novice engineer does not replace itself with a 1/1 every time, it puts a 1/1 on the board AND replaces itself with a new card, obviously this is not equivalent to paladin hero power.
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No he didn't explain it correctly. He had it up until the very last sentence.
Here:
1/1 Token costs you a card from your hand: Wisp, 0 mana
1/1 Token doesn't cost you a card from your hand: Paladin Hero power, 2 mana
1/1 Token doesn't cost you a card from your hand: Novice Engineer, 2 mana

Which 2 are alike?

It's irrelevant that the Novice Engineer replaces itself with a new card, it took up a card spot in your hand to begin with. It's the exact same reason Arcane Intellect is only considered a net of 1 card.
 
Valishar

Valishar

Molten Core Raider
766
424
From a card advantage standpoint the paladin power is the same as novice engineer. Novice engineer takes a spot in your 30 cards which isn't considered in simple card advantage, so there is a slight advantage or disadvantage to the engineer depending on your deck.

Warlock hero power is essentially Sign in blood in MTG, Arcane intellect is divination. Sign in blood is 2 mana, diviniation is 3. In MTG they consider the 2 life loss to be worth a mana savings, it is way undercosted in Hearthstone because you have 30 life as opposed to 20 life in MTG.
 
Mures

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
The Ancient_sl said:
No he didn't explain it correctly. He had it up until the very last sentence.
Here:
1/1 Token costs you a card from your hand: Wisp, 0 mana
1/1 Token doesn't cost you a card from your hand: Paladin Hero power, 2 mana
1/1 Token doesn't cost you a card from your hand: Novice Engineer, 2 mana

Which 2 are alike?

It's irrelevant that the Novice Engineer replaces itself with a new card, it took up a card spot in your hand to begin with. It's the exact same reason Arcane Intellect is only considered a net of 1 card.
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Even though both are "free" tokens for 2 mana, that does not make them equivalent. Because now you're back to comparing hero power vs a card; whereas the warlock hero power vs arcane intellect was a "if warlock hero power was a card" vs card comparison. Which goes back to my very first orignal statement, it absolutely does matter that novice engineer is 1/30 cards when compared straight up to the paldin hero power, which is not 1/30 deck cards.
 
Valishar

Valishar

Molten Core Raider
766
424
They aren't equivalent but it's the closest you can get to cost out the paladin power vs. card comparison because you have to take into account card advantage. That's why the paladin power isn't a wisp. Arcane intellect takes a deck spot too, but the warlock power is still better not just due to cost, but due to the on demand ability of it.
 
drtyrm

drtyrm

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,991
155
After all this discussion I'd love to have one of you tell me what's the value of the shaman hero power?
 
T

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
mures_sl said:
Even though both are "free" tokens for 2 mana, that does not make them equivalent. Because now you're back to comparing hero power vs a card; whereas the warlock hero power vs arcane intellect was a "if warlock hero power was a card" vs card comparison. Which goes back to my very first orignal statement, it absolutely does matter that novice engineer is 1/30 cards when compared straight up to the paldin hero power, which is not 1/30 deck cards.
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Yes, the cards themselves (Novice Engineer or Arcane Intellect) shrink your deck more which could be an advantage or a disadvantage. That's not the point of trying to attach value to the hero power by finding an equivalent card however.
 
X

Xith

Bronze Knight of the Realm
301
21
Drtyrm_sl said:
After all this discussion I'd love to have one of you tell me what's the value of the shaman hero power?
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There's 4 different totems.. taunt/spell power/heal/damage. I almost always get the one I least want and almost never the one I need. They all can be useful at times though. A lot of times you summon a totem first and that dictates the rest of your turn. Having a lot of totems on the board + bloodlust can be a good combo.
 
Seananigans

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD
<Gold Donor>
14,344
36,474
Shaman is weird. It's the only one that I know of that actually has distinct disadvantages at times, re: having too many damn minions on the board that do jack and shit clogging up spaces for useful minions (7 limit is gay btw).
 
T

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
Drtyrm_sl said:
After all this discussion I'd love to have one of you tell me what's the value of the shaman hero power?
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I actually think the Shaman hero power is the weakest overall because of how unpredictable it is. I'm not sure what I'd do to change it though. Each individual totem would be fine as a 0 mana card so in that sense it is "balanced" with all the other hero powers except for Warlock.

@Ancient: I understand what you're saying, I don't agree with your assessment. It is possible to understand someone's argument and not agree with it. I understand Trump's argument that the Warlock hero power is basically equivalent to AI, don't necessarily agree with it either, I was just presenting it to the thread because I was asked.
 
Brand

Brand

Molten Core Raider
1,159
313
Do you think Shaman would be OP if it cost 3, but allowed you to pick the totem type? Is there any way to improve the ability to make it more deterministic, but still balanced?
 
Uber Uberest

Uber Uberest

rdr^2
<Bronze Donator>
2,720
2,340
If you want to make it "cost 3", you mine as well make it "cost 2" with an overload of 1, for the syyyyynnnnerrrgyyyyyy.
 
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