Hearthstone

Vandyn · Jul 23, 2014

I beat Maexxna using a version of this.

Heroic Maexxna Guide(Naxxrammus) - Hearthstone Decks

Basically have to mulligan for explosive trap and novice engineer, using engineer as the draw engine for early rounds. Clear spiders initially with explosive trap then drop a pyromancer and clear the rest. After that she's easy. It says a lot about the AI then when you basically have the cheese the game in order to beat them. All they (the bosses) are using are OP powers and numerous copies of the same card with zero strategy.

Famm · Jul 23, 2014

I have to imagine they could have coded Maex differently so she doesn't automatically use the hero power as the first move every turn. But that might have made her unbeatable, reports were that they nerfed heroics after focus groups found them overpowered.

Zaphid · Jul 23, 2014

More like annoying as hell to play against. If a boss has to be beaten by a singular strategy, it's like a raid boss designed to be fought by 25 mages. Bullshit.

Pyros · Jul 23, 2014

Zaphid_sl said:
More like annoying as hell to play against. If a boss has to be beaten by a singular strategy, it's like a raid boss designed to be fought by 25 mages. Bullshit.

Well there's more than one strategy. You either bounce heal battlecries and slowly whittle her down until you can wipe everything she has then finish her(or mill her), you facerush charge and kill her before she kills you(easy usually if you pop a few spiders so she can't play anything) or you turtle up, alex her down to 15 then kill her the next turn(or the one after that).

It is like raid bosses, there is only one way to kill them usually, you have to execute whatever the mechanics impose on you. Sometimes you need more than 1 tank because of unremovable debuffs, sometimes you need a certain amount of CC classes to deal with adds, you need to walk here and there, need to spread and collapse and dispel or not dispel and all that shit, but in the end every raid boss has a single strat with minor variations.

Not sure why you'd expect anything different from an AI card match than this though. It's not like they were gonna make a life-like human AI to play against with a standard issue deck.

Zaphid · Jul 23, 2014

Actually, I wonder how hard it could be to make an AI, given that you have a bazillion matches in the database from which it can learn. There's no stack to keep track of, all you need is for the AI to be roughly aware of the deck they are going against. Then again, given how much people rage due to some plain luck with card draw, I doubt they would handle an AI playing that well.

Vandyn · Jul 23, 2014

Pyros_sl said:
Well there's more than one strategy. You either bounce heal battlecries and slowly whittle her down until you can wipe everything she has then finish her(or mill her), you facerush charge and kill her before she kills you(easy usually if you pop a few spiders so she can't play anything) or you turtle up, alex her down to 15 then kill her the next turn(or the one after that).

It is like raid bosses, there is only one way to kill them usually, you have to execute whatever the mechanics impose on you. Sometimes you need more than 1 tank because of unremovable debuffs, sometimes you need a certain amount of CC classes to deal with adds, you need to walk here and there, need to spread and collapse and dispel or not dispel and all that shit, but in the end every raid boss has a single strat with minor variations.

Not sure why you'd expect anything different from an AI card match than this though. It's not like they were gonna make a life-like human AI to play against with a standard issue deck.

I think the problem is the AI plays the exact same way every single game. Maexx and Faer are a 100% lock to use their hero power turns 1-4 and Maexx uses her hero power even if you have nothing on the board (doesn't hurt her because her's cost 0). At least if they mix it up a little, don't have Maexx always use her hero power (which makes her a little more unpredictable) it can make it a little more interesting.

Personally I think PvE has no place in a card game for this reasons, the AI is always going to get cheesed and then you're reduced to making the AI super OP and even playing beyond the card rules in order to have a chance.

Column_sl · Jul 23, 2014

I wish they would stat track the clearings of the wings.

I know I beat every american streamer by far, and had to be around the 100 fastest in the US.

Pyros · Jul 23, 2014

Vandyn_sl said:
I think the problem is the AI plays the exact same way every single game. Maexx and Faer are a 100% lock to use their hero power turns 1-4 and Maexx uses her hero power even if you have nothing on the board (doesn't hurt her because her's cost 0). At least if they mix it up a little, don't have Maexx always use her hero power (which makes her a little more unpredictable) it can make it a little more interesting.

Personally I think PvE has no place in a card game for this reasons, the AI is always going to get cheesed and then you're reduced to making the AI super OP and even playing beyond the card rules in order to have a chance.

Faerlina doesn't use her hero power every turn, sometimes she doesn't use it in the first 4turns, it just depends on what she draws, she'll always play cards over hero power but she sometimes doesn't have cards of the right cost. Maex hero power is set on autocast, like literally you hover on it and it says:"Cast automatically every turn".

Plenty of people enjoy it. I thought it was pretty fun to play. The AI "cheats" in terms of PvP rules but it's an AI, that's how video games work, almost no games have monsters behaving in the same way that players do and especially bosses always have bigger health pools and more damage and shit like that. It makes sense they wouldn't play with the same cards and the same rules.

Caliane · Jul 23, 2014

I would think making a strong AI for a card game like this would actually be "fairly" easy to make decent. sortof like chess A.I, since the cards are set. there is a limited number of moves on any given turn.
RTS it has to cheat, since the AI can't really handle fog of war, etc. And at the same time, you have to either code in player delay, or let the A.I. cheat in its ability to enter 200 commands instantly, as a counter to its inability to do things like handle fog of war, etc.

The AI having OP cards, decks, abilities is probably less about an inability to make a competitive A.I, and more about making a fun alternative to normal play. Theme decks etc. so playing the A.I is like playing a puzzle, NOT playing a player.
Like Kel thuzad making the joke about Maexxna playing a sea giant.
Aka, the decks are so heavily themed, they are not really competitive. and they had to let the A.I. cheat to make them competitive.

Morrow · Jul 23, 2014

Pyros_sl said:
Well there's more than one strategy. You either bounce heal battlecries and slowly whittle her down until you can wipe everything she has then finish her(or mill her), you facerush charge and kill her before she kills you(easy usually if you pop a few spiders so she can't play anything) or you turtle up, alex her down to 15 then kill her the next turn(or the one after that).

It is like raid bosses, there is only one way to kill them usually, you have to execute whatever the mechanics impose on you. Sometimes you need more than 1 tank because of unremovable debuffs, sometimes you need a certain amount of CC classes to deal with adds, you need to walk here and there, need to spread and collapse and dispel or not dispel and all that shit, but in the end every raid boss has a single strat with minor variations.

Not sure why you'd expect anything different from an AI card match than this though. It's not like they were gonna make a life-like human AI to play against with a standard issue deck.

Can't believe nobody else has mentioned this, but you can easily beat her with x2 Mind Control Tech in pretty much any deck long as you draw one of the tech reasonably early. Eventually you get enough of her creatures that you have too much on the board for her to deal with. It's also extremely fun to do. I've now done it with Mage, Rogue, Paladin and Priest just because it's fun. Don't even need heals really. It overwhelms her pretty quick.

In the first game below I healed for a grand total of 3. Never used Ice Barrier, and never did any direct damage to her. 39 of the damage I dealt to her was with her own creatures.

In the second screenshot, you can clearly see game is already basically over by turn 6 with Rogue. Easy peasy. Just for shits I delayed the Rogue game posted below as long as possible just to try and get to full life. Ended up winning with 27 life and obvious complete board control the entire time. Mind Control Tech is fun fun fun, but perhaps a bit too easy. It's a shame there's no achievement for beating the heroics with every class, that'd be cool.

Angelwatch · Jul 23, 2014

And in the least shocking news ever, everyone now is running a card for card copy of Reynad's Zoo that he was streaming last night (modified to include 2 weblords and 2 eggs).

Over the past week, I've also been seeing an annoying amount of priests. Even in ranked I simply auto-concede against priests. There simply is no class I hate more than them even if they are, consistently, viewed as one of the weakest classes.

elidib · Jul 23, 2014

I totally tried to do that with mind control techs, I had bad luck and would only steal the crappy stuff, and then she used that poison nuke spell on my MC tech, which ended that experiment lol. that's when I switched to the warrior deck i posted earlier.

Also the reason you're seeing so many priests is that they can counter zoo with a certain type of deck. it's pretty terrible against everything else, but it has over 80% win against zoo.

Asmadai · Jul 23, 2014

Ok maybe i'm just not seeing something, but how is that Rogue screenshot game "almost over by turn 6"? I don't see the cards on the table, nor in your hand to end that within 3 or 4 more turns.

Or is it because you're supposed to play off all those Battlecry/Combo cards with her return Hero Ability?

Lasch · Jul 23, 2014

Angelwatch_sl said:
And in the least shocking news ever, everyone now is running a card for card copy of Reynad's Zoo that he was streaming last night (modified to include 2 weblords and 2 eggs).

Over the past week, I've also been seeing an annoying amount of priests. Even in ranked I simply auto-concede against priests. There simply is no class I hate more than them even if they are, consistently, viewed as one of the weakest classes.

That is disappointing. I was hoping the weblord would be a zoo hoser, and not something they took up and adapted their list around.

edit: do you mean haunted creeper? How does zoo have enough creatures without still running battle cry.dec?

Morrow · Jul 23, 2014

elidib_sl said:
I totally tried to do that with mind control techs, I had bad luck and would only steal the crappy stuff, and then she used that poison nuke spell on my MC tech, which ended that experiment lol. that's when I switched to the warrior deck i posted earlier.

Also the reason you're seeing so many priests is that they can counter zoo with a certain type of deck. it's pretty terrible against everything else, but it has over 80% win against zoo.

You're doing it wrong. You only play Mind Control Tech alone. You can alternate between turns playing just Mind Control Tech and turns dropping all her random creatures if you're having trouble, but it should be relatively easy either way. Just Mind Control drain her 3 turns in a row or so, and then start dropping. She won't be able to keep up.

Morrow · Jul 23, 2014

Asmadai_sl said:
Ok maybe i'm just not seeing something, but how is that Rogue screenshot game "almost over by turn 6"? I don't see the cards on the table, nor in your hand to end that within 3 or 4 more turns.

Or is it because you're supposed to play off all those Battlecry/Combo cards with her return Hero Ability?

It's over in the sense that there's absolutely and literally nothing she can do to win from then on, so the game "was basically won" by turn 6 because I have complete control. Here's a later screenshot on her turn 9 and 10.

You can literally beat her with 0 class cards and never using a single class ability with any class just with a few basic cards (silence owl, elven archer, far seer) and x2 mind control tech.

Frenzied Wombat · Jul 23, 2014

I don't know what the whole fuss is, I finished the entire first wing with zero losses using a basic fast aggro mage deck and going straight for the head.

Rogosh · Jul 23, 2014

Angelwatch_sl said:
And in the least shocking news ever, everyone now is running a card for card copy of Reynad's Zoo that he was streaming last night (modified to include 2 weblords and 2 eggs).

Over the past week, I've also been seeing an annoying amount of priests. Even in ranked I simply auto-concede against priests. There simply is no class I hate more than them even if they are, consistently, viewed as one of the weakest classes.

Lol like everyone wasnt going to do that anyways. Its not rocket science to add those cards to zoo, they are strong.

Lasch · Jul 23, 2014

Could I get a deck list? Would love to play aggro that can deal 45 against:
charger
token
token
coin abomination
abomination
(admittedly comp's draw 2nd game was worse)

Angelwatch · Jul 23, 2014

Yeah, I meant the Haunted Creeper. I got the two confused. The little spider guy who spawns littler spider guys on death.

Search

Hearthstone

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider

Famm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider

Pyros

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider

Column_sl

shitlord

Pyros

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer

Morrow

Trakanon Raider

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider

elidib

Vyemm Raider

Asmadai

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lasch

Trakanon Raider

Morrow

Trakanon Raider

Morrow

Trakanon Raider

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande

Rogosh

Lord Nagafen Raider

Lasch

Trakanon Raider

Angelwatch

Trakanon Raider