Morrow
Trakanon Raider
- 3,341
- 948
Hearthstone
- Thread starter Azrayne
- Start date
Ok, I'm willing to talk through this. I'll maybe concede that Undertaker is a little too powerful at the moment but Implosion is fine either way we should almost never nerf cards in this game.
Cards like Implosion make mediocre decks better but they are still mediocre.
Keep in mind that Blizzards naming system allows for duplicates. They can have 1000 Trumps on the ladder at any moment because each place has their own Blizzard unique ID.
TheBeagle
JunkiesNetwork Donor
- 9,138
- 32,059
I've played a couple hundred games with undertaker zoo/huntard and it seems like if you don't get the perfect start with it (3 one-drops by turn two, or 4 with the coin) then it's not the gamebreaker everyone cries about. Combined with the fact that most decks run an early removal (wrath, frostbolt, fiery win axe, etc.) and I don't see the need for the nerf bat. A perfect Mechwarper opening seems WAY more powerful than an Undertaker and a couple of leper gnomes.
Agreed, If you are having trouble with undertaker plays then change your deck to deal with it don't take it on the chin and complain. The reason why those super agro decks don't make it to the high decks often is because they are very susceptible to a stumble and better players will make them stumble more.
Against a Hunter if you can neutralize the turn 1 undertaker and the turn 6 lion you've won the game. Zoo is just bad all around.
- 17,184
- 8,195
I like undertaker and implosion if only because they give people with shitty collections the ability to grind out wins in this shitty ladder. I don't even want to "ladder up", I just want to do my dailies. At least for hunter and warlock dailies, I have a fighting chance against the much more expensive decks that seem to be fucking everywhere this season.
The cards themselves might actually be overpowered, undertaker more likely than implosion. But in this current meta and the card collection of my average opponent, I think there are much bigger problems to address.
The cards themselves might actually be overpowered, undertaker more likely than implosion. But in this current meta and the card collection of my average opponent, I think there are much bigger problems to address.
Mures
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 4,014
- 511
Out of the 100 or so cancer games I've played this month I can count the number of times on one hand I've gotten an undertaker 3 or more power, I can count on one digit the number of times it got to 4 or higher. Undertaker has single-handedly made early game hearthstone a thing though. You need early removal now, but whereas before early removal was a big handicap against everything except aggro, now pretty much every deck has some form of early game so you need a way to deal with it anyway. I think this is very intentional and why we haven't seen an undertaker nerf already, so we don't have a boring first 1-3 turns every game.
Morrow
Trakanon Raider
- 3,341
- 948
Ha, I wish. I seriously wish. I would love a feasible mech Rogue. You guys are smoking crack. You're forgetting how much Undertaker has warped the meta to its most basic foundation. Just because everyone runs counters to it now, doesn't mean it's not OP and in need of nerfing. Oh, your 1 mana creature only got to 3 attack and 4 health and you considering that bad? That kind of effect on the game is silly and is supposed to be against Blizzard's vision for HS. You have to make bad trades to counter Undertaker, 99% of the time. And people's tolerances/expectations have changed as a result. You didn't used to feel good about using premium removal on a 1 mana card... And a silence on a 1 mana card was always considered a win for the player with the 1 mana card. Shit is just out of wack. I promise they'll be nerfed eventually, there's no stopping it.
However, I do agree that I like that newer players can have a chance at ranked with these things.
Cards I'd make bets on that are getting nerfed soon:
Undertaker
Mechwarper
Imp-losion
Dr. Boom
TheBeagle
JunkiesNetwork Donor
- 9,138
- 32,059
99%? I think that's a huge exaggeration. Turn one Undertakers are easily taken care of with frostbolts, wraths, win axes, backstabs, earf shocks, lightning bolts, rock biters, and dark bombs. None of those are premium removals. The only class that can't insta gib it on turn two or one+coin are pallies and they still have truesilver, shielded minibots, and scarlet purifiers to turn to if it gets too bad.
I just had a game against a rogue who had double mech warpers, an annoyatron, and a harvest golem all on the board on turn three. Thats a taunt, a divine shield, and 7/11 on the board going into turn 4. How do you counter that? Maybe a druid that can coin/innervate into an Ancient of War on turn four?
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 44,438
- 53,911
Xizo hit #1 on all 3 servers simultaneously with Zoo last season, but I'm sure Zoo is perfectly balanced and doesn't have any cards that need to be nerfed because your feels tell you so.
Dr Boom is a strong candidate for nerfing because of novice engineer logic. Mechwarper is probably safe because the only thing that's broken about Mechwarper is double Mechwarper openings, and dumping your entire hand like that is nothing new for all-in decks.
Dr Boom is a strong candidate for nerfing because of novice engineer logic. Mechwarper is probably safe because the only thing that's broken about Mechwarper is double Mechwarper openings, and dumping your entire hand like that is nothing new for all-in decks.
Angelwatch
Trakanon Raider
- 3,053
- 133
Dr. Boom will get nerfed but I disagree completely on it. We just didn't have any viable 7 cost neutral cards before him so, of course, people are going to run the first good one that is printed. But Blizzard has to know that after they nerf Boom, people aren't going to start packing War Golems in his place. The 7 spot will just be a dead zone again. The true fix for Dr. Boom is more 7 cost cards that are viable. Not nerfing the only good one out there. But we know that Blizzard takes the path of least resistance.
Undertaker, on the other hand, should have been nerfed months ago. It's simply too strong and GvG, indirectly, made him even stronger with Mechanical Gnomes, Shredders, Yeti, etc. The biggest problem is that he has to be countered as soon as he hits the board or you risk him snowballing out of control. But that early in the game, your counter options are limited and it's likely you haven't even had a chance to draw them yet. Contrast that with Dr. Boom who also needs a counter but is, inherently, susceptible to BGH and can be taken out wit other methods. And because he comes so much later, you're likely to have an answer for him.
Overall I won't call GvG a failure but I don't think it was wildly successful either. It made problem decks worse without really introducing many new options. I'm glad to see Mech Mage but beyond that, there haven't been too many new archetypes or decks yet. I still think it's a bit early with GvG and not all of the cards have been fully explored for potential yet. But the initial overview doesn't look great. And it sucks that we only got one truly good Legendary (Boom), a few decent ones (Vol'Jin as an example) and a lot of really bad ones.
Undertaker, on the other hand, should have been nerfed months ago. It's simply too strong and GvG, indirectly, made him even stronger with Mechanical Gnomes, Shredders, Yeti, etc. The biggest problem is that he has to be countered as soon as he hits the board or you risk him snowballing out of control. But that early in the game, your counter options are limited and it's likely you haven't even had a chance to draw them yet. Contrast that with Dr. Boom who also needs a counter but is, inherently, susceptible to BGH and can be taken out wit other methods. And because he comes so much later, you're likely to have an answer for him.
Overall I won't call GvG a failure but I don't think it was wildly successful either. It made problem decks worse without really introducing many new options. I'm glad to see Mech Mage but beyond that, there haven't been too many new archetypes or decks yet. I still think it's a bit early with GvG and not all of the cards have been fully explored for potential yet. But the initial overview doesn't look great. And it sucks that we only got one truly good Legendary (Boom), a few decent ones (Vol'Jin as an example) and a lot of really bad ones.
Famm
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 11,041
- 794
Well like you said about Undertaker, the entire meta revolves around having your early removal in hand at the mulligan. Undertaker, Mechwarper, Zap-Matic, Voidwalker, Pain/Armorsmith, all beg for ASAP removal.
Also, what he said.
You guys are thinking about Cancer ,and Zoo all wrong. And it is why they have been so powerful for the last 2-3 seasons.
It's the consistency of zoo/cancer over the 50% threshold against all decks that make them insanely powerful not if your data says you were unable to mulligan for undertaker in over half your hands.
If you play a deck that is specifically designed to counter them you leave yourself open to every other deck out there. Zoo and Cancer do not run into this problem...
Even in tournament play we saw many Zoos last season all the way up to the finals.
It's the consistency of zoo/cancer over the 50% threshold against all decks that make them insanely powerful not if your data says you were unable to mulligan for undertaker in over half your hands.
If you play a deck that is specifically designed to counter them you leave yourself open to every other deck out there. Zoo and Cancer do not run into this problem...
Even in tournament play we saw many Zoos last season all the way up to the finals.
Morrow
Trakanon Raider
- 3,341
- 948
You missed my point entirely. You said that I was wrong about saying that 99% of the time, you have to make a bad trade to get rid of Undertaker and then used a ton of premium removal spells, some of them 2-3 mana as an example of why you don't have to make bad trades 99% of the time. You haven't been playing long enough to understand the deterioration of value in removal decisions, thanks to Undertaker. Like I said, it used to be considered bad to use any of those spells on a 1 mana creature.
Glad we all agree on Dr. Boom getting nerfed.
Angelwatch
Trakanon Raider
- 3,053
- 133
Morrow is right.
Using, premium, removal on an Undertaker is a bad trade but it has to be done or you risk the thing spiraling out of control. You give up a good removal card to get rid of the Undertaker and you also give up tempo to do so. It's turn 1, opponent undertaker. Turn 2 I spend my entire turn removing it. Opponent can now drop another threat or two and you slowly lose control of the board. That's why Fiery Waraxe is considered the only good counter to a turn 1 Undertaker. You Hit the Undertaker and you still have Waraxe equipped with 1 charge to deal with their Turn 2 threat allowing you the chance to begin developing your own board.
And it's premium in the sense that you need to use a 2 cost card to deal with a 1 cost card which eats up your whole turn as I described above.
As far as Imp-Losion goes. I don't have a dog in that race. I simply don't see enough Warlocks running Zoo these days to form an opinion on it. The few times I did run into it, I was playing Control Warrior so I simply dropped a Death's Bite or an Unstable Ghoul to mop up the mess it left behind. I can see where it could cause some problems but I'm also not convinced that it needs nerfing yet.