Starcraft has a standardized map pool that everyone plays on but it rotates around just fine. The map differences in SC can be just as impactful on gameplay as the map differences in HOTS. Most SC fans even lament the fact the map pool in SC is too standardized with the base layouts and expansion patterns. I'd say if anything I'd be excited to see a rotating map pool in professional MOBA.
Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter Mures
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I never said WOW BGs were a 1:1 comparison for the game for fucks sake. I'll say it again, this is how the comparison helps describe HOTS:
- Game has multiple maps.
- The full team's power level always scales at the same rate. In a WOW BG you're no more powerful at the beginning then at the end. In HOTS you are more powerful due to game mechanics, but compared to your team in context you're all in the same level. Your actual gameplay can not make you more or less powerful than your teammates.
That's essentially it. You're taking my WOW BG comparison way too far. It's not supposed to be able to convey details of the game to someone else.
How much experience are you getting from a hero kill in HOTS? Is it something significant like 20-50% of a level? Getting a kill in LOL/DOTA is a significant spike in power due to items. I'm actually curious about this, it would make an interesting comparison.
That's kind of what I've been saying all along? Your original statement did not convey this.
My guess was just based on what I've seen so far. This could very well be true because there really is no right answer. Personally I view the map as a football field. No matter who is playing, the field is always the same so the only variable is the player and team. I guess we'll see.
Mures
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I'm not making it a 1:1 comparison, I'm saying you can't even compare the two. Just because the two games have multiple maps does not make them comparable. Can you compare tfc and hots? They both have multiple maps. No, you can't because it has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever. And your second point there is no comparison. You can not compare because there are no levels in battlegrounds. Again, saying you personally are not more or less powerful than your teammates at the end of the match does not make the game comparable to a fps. Just because a statement is true, doesn't make it comparable.
And it is a significant amount of xp, probably ~20-40% of a lvl, depending on the lvl (probably even more if you are behind with the new xp system they are testing).
Dandain
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First, its a really accurate description to call HoTS a Hero Arena game that plays on a tactical level more like WoW BG's than Dota or League. The map defines the moba genre - there is a reason league and dota's base competitive map both contain 3 lanes, jungles of a certain size, and relative symmetry. Smite verifies this with the basic shape of its map even though it is a first person(third) interpretation of the Dota gameplay.
HoTS blows up this core trait - which is fine - but it definitely changes the game from being a moba in the most strict sense of dota or league. Its honestly no knock, and its a great idea. Other maps have been attempted inside the league/dota/hon paradigm but they just do not work to maintain competitive balance. There have been 3v3 versions, dominion, aram, Dota will see maps like Pudge wars, and other mini games but they will not be competitively balanced.
To allow a game to contain a pile of different maps with a different style of objective (WoW BG like) (CTF/Zone Control/Even Base Pushing/Controlling(Alterac) there are certain adjustments that must be made if the maps are to be reasonably fun and balanced with the whole cast in mind. HoTS maps do not have to be balanced with multiple resources in mind (experience/gold/items), but instead just experience. This is a core difference between HoTS and the other games because it replaces the complexity of balancing gold/items with map design. A good HoTS map will be thought of as Arathi Basin, while a shitty one might be compared to Alterac Valley's (multiple iterations). While in Dota/League - the map is the map.
Second you sacrifice the goal of making the entire cast entirely balanced on every map. I'm certain that we will see heroes in HoTS get discussed in terms of the maps which their skillset is top tier among all available options. There is no way around this feature and I think it is fine. This will just be how imbalance in HoTS will ultimately be discussed. You can look at the other games in the genre to understand this - as in league there are champs that obviously thrive in a dominion and those that do not. But Riot cannot tweak a champion because its too OP/UP in Dominion as it will upset the balance on Summoner's Rift (the only ultimate consideration). A hero in HoTS will probably be adjusted based on extreme map strength or weakness - but such changes will impact their presence on all the maps in an unequal way.
I'm not sure the need of people to claim HoTS is some unique game, I think it will turn out to be good casual fun with friends. I think it will turn people on to the deeper gameplay of League/Dota in some cases, and in others give players who want the 5v5 hero gameplay but without the steep competitive environment and its accompanying time commitment a place to get their piece. I look forward and hope that some of my no-moba buddies can enjoy hots - get hooked on the 5v5 and maybe just maybe decide they want to give dota or league some legitimate time. Likewise - high level concepts from 5v5 gameplay for league and dota players do directly translate.
The knowledge that will be unique to HoTS will be the various maps, triggers, and strategies to win. Much like how people would craft strategies to win in Arathi Basin, or Warsong. Where each map is not equivalently balanced for all group comps, and capture strategies can be a bit varied depending on the class composition.
Just because HoTS is relatively simple in comparison to dota/league doesn't mean it isn't more complicated game than almost anything else out there.
HoTS blows up this core trait - which is fine - but it definitely changes the game from being a moba in the most strict sense of dota or league. Its honestly no knock, and its a great idea. Other maps have been attempted inside the league/dota/hon paradigm but they just do not work to maintain competitive balance. There have been 3v3 versions, dominion, aram, Dota will see maps like Pudge wars, and other mini games but they will not be competitively balanced.
To allow a game to contain a pile of different maps with a different style of objective (WoW BG like) (CTF/Zone Control/Even Base Pushing/Controlling(Alterac) there are certain adjustments that must be made if the maps are to be reasonably fun and balanced with the whole cast in mind. HoTS maps do not have to be balanced with multiple resources in mind (experience/gold/items), but instead just experience. This is a core difference between HoTS and the other games because it replaces the complexity of balancing gold/items with map design. A good HoTS map will be thought of as Arathi Basin, while a shitty one might be compared to Alterac Valley's (multiple iterations). While in Dota/League - the map is the map.
Second you sacrifice the goal of making the entire cast entirely balanced on every map. I'm certain that we will see heroes in HoTS get discussed in terms of the maps which their skillset is top tier among all available options. There is no way around this feature and I think it is fine. This will just be how imbalance in HoTS will ultimately be discussed. You can look at the other games in the genre to understand this - as in league there are champs that obviously thrive in a dominion and those that do not. But Riot cannot tweak a champion because its too OP/UP in Dominion as it will upset the balance on Summoner's Rift (the only ultimate consideration). A hero in HoTS will probably be adjusted based on extreme map strength or weakness - but such changes will impact their presence on all the maps in an unequal way.
I'm not sure the need of people to claim HoTS is some unique game, I think it will turn out to be good casual fun with friends. I think it will turn people on to the deeper gameplay of League/Dota in some cases, and in others give players who want the 5v5 hero gameplay but without the steep competitive environment and its accompanying time commitment a place to get their piece. I look forward and hope that some of my no-moba buddies can enjoy hots - get hooked on the 5v5 and maybe just maybe decide they want to give dota or league some legitimate time. Likewise - high level concepts from 5v5 gameplay for league and dota players do directly translate.
The knowledge that will be unique to HoTS will be the various maps, triggers, and strategies to win. Much like how people would craft strategies to win in Arathi Basin, or Warsong. Where each map is not equivalently balanced for all group comps, and capture strategies can be a bit varied depending on the class composition.
Just because HoTS is relatively simple in comparison to dota/league doesn't mean it isn't more complicated game than almost anything else out there.
Mures
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Maybe I don't know enough about wow battlegrounds then. Anyone play wow battlegrounds and eq2 battlegrounds to say its fair they are pretty similar? When I hear there are different maps in wow battlegrounds I think of things like ctf, or king of the hill, or control this position. The primary win condition is different for each map. Am I wrong in that assumption? The big difference here, in each of the hots maps the goal of the game, just like any other moba, is still to destroy your enemies nexus/core.
Regardless, I can not agree hots is more like wow battlegrounds than any other moba(I think draegan already conceded hots is more like lol/dota than wow battlegrounds) just because they have different maps, when core mechanics are so vastly different and instead are more comparable to any other moba. I would never have considered comparing hots to eq2 battlegrounds, and I don't think people would compare it to wow battlegrounds if they weren't both made by blizzard. And that is my whole point, not to make 1:1 comparisons, but if I'm telling someone about the game saying it compares to wow battlegrounds when they know what lol or dota are is just retarded, its far more closely related to those two games than wow battlegrounds.
Regardless, I can not agree hots is more like wow battlegrounds than any other moba(I think draegan already conceded hots is more like lol/dota than wow battlegrounds) just because they have different maps, when core mechanics are so vastly different and instead are more comparable to any other moba. I would never have considered comparing hots to eq2 battlegrounds, and I don't think people would compare it to wow battlegrounds if they weren't both made by blizzard. And that is my whole point, not to make 1:1 comparisons, but if I'm telling someone about the game saying it compares to wow battlegrounds when they know what lol or dota are is just retarded, its far more closely related to those two games than wow battlegrounds.
Capture the flag just wouldn't work in HoTS due to the nature of lanes and forts. If they wanted to take lanes and forts out altogether, then it could maybe work. Still, 3 of the maps feature retrieving something to benefit your team (Mines, Raven, and Pirate) even if it's not a flag that you have to bring back to your base.
The Dragon Knight map is the only real zone control map and is my least favorite. Right now you have to control both shrines to even summon the Dragon Knight. Fighting for a control point is fun, but having to babysit it is not. If I could change the Dragon Knight map, I would make it such that the Dragon Knight could be summoned at any point after the shrines activate, but controlling one or more shrines will make it stronger. If the other team controls both shrines, it'll be weaker. Basically, it'll have five levels of strength (-2 through +2). That way, leaving the shrine to secure the knight isn't punished if the enemy swoops in after you leave. Also, make the shrines a clicky so that you have to actually secure the area and not just stand around an area.
Mures
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Unless they made the dragon knight so ridiculously under powered at 0 - -2 (like +2 being current power, 0 = to an average hero, and -2 = murky) why would anyone ever not just go for the dragon knight? There is no way you could cap mid if you try to take either/both shrines, or at least would have to win a 4v5 to cap if you tried capturing just one shrine so it leads to the question why would you ever try and capture a shrine? It just basically automatically gives your opponent a -1 or -2 dragon. And if you say instead both shrines have to be controlled by someone then it will forever be each team caps 1 shrine and then its a team fight in mid.
Having people "swoop in" if you left a shrine all alone to go help mid is exactly what balances the map.
Dandain
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Right but you're making the point for me. We will ultimately discuss HoTS in the context of all of its maps. Much like we would discuss in context WoW battle grounds the balance of the map and how certain heroes or classes are better or worse at certain kind of objectives. Best Team comps will exist in HoTS - they will exist relative to each map.
Mures, I appreciate your post but you honestly did not read anything I wrote based on your response. First its about a tactical comparison to battle grounds, no one here is arguing that the RTS single hero control scheme in an isometric view plays like WoW characters. What we are discussing and comparing is how the maps in HoTS are comparable to the MAP of dota and league. And what that means for both game, hero balance, and how people play the game to win. HoTS will be at its best if they managed to create multiple maps that have unique and varied details to accomplish the win condition of "destroying the base"
Making the argument that HoTS isn't like a battle ground strictly because you don't "destroy a base" misses the fact that the shit in between is where the game happens. The base destruction is really only a symbolic end goal. If you're collecting an item to activate a map detail that creates the win condition - there is no turning on a curse, or spawn a rampaging mob or anything like that in dota or league. To win in HoTS you accomplish the map specific triggers which then create an environment where the enemy base dies. The fact the base dies is just a conclusion to each game not a mechanic.
Mures, I appreciate your post but you honestly did not read anything I wrote based on your response. First its about a tactical comparison to battle grounds, no one here is arguing that the RTS single hero control scheme in an isometric view plays like WoW characters. What we are discussing and comparing is how the maps in HoTS are comparable to the MAP of dota and league. And what that means for both game, hero balance, and how people play the game to win. HoTS will be at its best if they managed to create multiple maps that have unique and varied details to accomplish the win condition of "destroying the base"
Making the argument that HoTS isn't like a battle ground strictly because you don't "destroy a base" misses the fact that the shit in between is where the game happens. The base destruction is really only a symbolic end goal. If you're collecting an item to activate a map detail that creates the win condition - there is no turning on a curse, or spawn a rampaging mob or anything like that in dota or league. To win in HoTS you accomplish the map specific triggers which then create an environment where the enemy base dies. The fact the base dies is just a conclusion to each game not a mechanic.
Mures
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Your post does help me better understand what draegan was trying to convey, if that is indeed what he was trying to say, but it is still a really big stretch to say it compares to battlegrounds, to the point of even saying it is essentially the same thing, just because there are different tactics for different maps. That notion, that the whole scope of the game is more like battlegrounds simply because there is more than one map and the tactics around them is absurd. It is the core mechanics of the game that matter the most, not the map you're playing on and tactics required.
And if you believe the base destruction is really only a symbolic end goal you would be mistaken. It is THE goal, the only goal that really matters. I've lost every golem and every team fight on the haunted mines and won the game, my team was 3 lvls down when we won. On the fly strategy and execution won my team the game, not controlling the map objectives. Do you win ctf when your team captures less flags than your enemy team? Do you win koth if you control the object less than your enemy team? You obviously haven't played hots very much if at all.
And if you believe the base destruction is really only a symbolic end goal you would be mistaken. It is THE goal, the only goal that really matters. I've lost every golem and every team fight on the haunted mines and won the game, my team was 3 lvls down when we won. On the fly strategy and execution won my team the game, not controlling the map objectives. Do you win ctf when your team captures less flags than your enemy team? Do you win koth if you control the object less than your enemy team? You obviously haven't played hots very much if at all.
Dandain
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But its not, because the map is everything in league and dota, absolutely everything. The map defines both games and the genre more than any other singular aspect. Its not the heroes, its not the item shop, its the map. Every single game of league or dota played in its most balanced setting is on one map, the end with no variants, and its again no surprise that in concept league and dota maps are virtually identical. The fact that HoTS changes maps is very very meaningful, and apparently something that I can't convey, you can't grasp, or you lack the experience in all the games for you to understand that point. Its the most important point that I am attempting to make.
Changing the map completely changes the dynamic, and when new maps are created relative balance is dictated by that map as much as by anything else. This is why the WoW BG comparison is meaningful, there is no second map worth a shit ever in 10 years of moba and they have tried in every game to make alternatives where they are nothing more than distractions that you play randomly, for fun, because they are not balanced. HoTS is going to be a multi map approach and will seek balance by limited variables - namely gold, items, and distinct player experience will all be stripped from the game. Team exp becomes the only currency, and variety is created through well executed maps that promote different kinds of play environments, with npcs, or with a collection behavior like coins.
The fact you latch onto the base on the singular linking thread between the games - is shallow and your example of just how important the base is is disingenuous. Even you understand that your comment about losing every fight, and every objective and being three levels behind and still winning the game had as much to do with the enemy team throwing the game or not finishing the map correctly, but it wasn't some great play by your team that pulls out a win from that kind of position - you're speaking in pure hyperbole. Your opponents need to hand you a gift if the game truly played how you characterize.
HoTS seeks to create less violent snowballing relative to the other games, which is a fine goal. They don't want the game to last even half the time of an average league game (that's one variable that prevents wide gaps in player power power - time. The second is that they strip out ways for solo players to extract a substantial percentage of more efficiency out of the map than their opponents, and then they bandage that gap with one team only benefits such as underdog experience.
Changing the map completely changes the dynamic, and when new maps are created relative balance is dictated by that map as much as by anything else. This is why the WoW BG comparison is meaningful, there is no second map worth a shit ever in 10 years of moba and they have tried in every game to make alternatives where they are nothing more than distractions that you play randomly, for fun, because they are not balanced. HoTS is going to be a multi map approach and will seek balance by limited variables - namely gold, items, and distinct player experience will all be stripped from the game. Team exp becomes the only currency, and variety is created through well executed maps that promote different kinds of play environments, with npcs, or with a collection behavior like coins.
The fact you latch onto the base on the singular linking thread between the games - is shallow and your example of just how important the base is is disingenuous. Even you understand that your comment about losing every fight, and every objective and being three levels behind and still winning the game had as much to do with the enemy team throwing the game or not finishing the map correctly, but it wasn't some great play by your team that pulls out a win from that kind of position - you're speaking in pure hyperbole. Your opponents need to hand you a gift if the game truly played how you characterize.
HoTS seeks to create less violent snowballing relative to the other games, which is a fine goal. They don't want the game to last even half the time of an average league game (that's one variable that prevents wide gaps in player power power - time. The second is that they strip out ways for solo players to extract a substantial percentage of more efficiency out of the map than their opponents, and then they bandage that gap with one team only benefits such as underdog experience.
Man Diablo can really dictate team fights. His damage is absolute and complete dick but the amount of disruption he can unleash is uncanny and once you get 100+ souls you are tanking damage for days. If you have a competent healer on your team you can even talent to get +30% healing efficiency which really keeps you going. I love how in this game I seem to have a new favorite hero on a daily basis. For some reason I love playing tanks at the moment.
I didn't concede, you just can't seem to grasp what I'm saying because you either want to go hardcore fanboy mode or you're dumb. HOTS is a MOBA hat's why is very close to LOL/DOTA2. However in order to explain to someone what differentiates LOL/DOTA2 from HOTS is that it's like a WOW BG.
Jesus titty fucking christ. Rustled jimmies to the max.
Mures
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If that wasn't the original point you didn't make yourself very clear and dandain explained your point way clearer than you ever did. You said "The game is essentially WOW battlegrounds where everyone has the same gear but different talent points." You didn't say the game is essentially lol/dota2 with battlegrounds map pools. I don't know about you, but when I say something is essentially something I mean it is basically the same thing and the two things are so entirely different saying the two things are the same is just ignorant. Yes, I'm a hardcore fanboy just because I still say any comparison to battlegrounds is dumb and wouldn't be made if not both games made by blizzard. I'm intelligent enough to know that lol/dota2 are both good games and hots is just different aiming for different things. I don't believe any one is better than the other, they are just all different. You want to talk about fanboyism? I'm not the one posting false information in a thread about a game I've never played before. Its obvious you have a pony in the race, so don't talk to me about fanboys.
I said the game is more like WOW BGs in the context that they are all MOBAs. But go ahead and keep thinking the way you do.
What a stupid fucking argument this is. Every person I've talked to who's played HoTS has made the moba/BG hybrid comparison, it's not like it's some wacky opinion. Saying that is not an insult to HoTS in any way, shape or form; it's just a statement to describe the difference between HoTS and traditional mobas.
Could also put something about people who have never played HOTS give definitive opinions and answers to HOTS questions