Hex: Shards of Fate TCG - Set 7: Frostheart 6/29/17

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Flight

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Called this on page two of this thread last year.


Flight_sl said:
Yes mate. I've played CCGs (including L5R and Magic) since a couple months after MtG was launched. I know some games have adopted mechanics (and had to fight WotC over them), but Hex is a total copy of everything in MtG. You can even name the MtG card that pretty much every Hex card in that vid is a direct rip off of.

One thing I do know is that WotC have always been one of the most litigious companies out there.

I'm pretty sure WotC will go after Cryptozoic. Pretty much they go after every CCG which end up either paying significant legal fees or paying royalties to WotC. The question is what Cryptozoics reponse will be.
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Interesting that MtG patents expire next year. Significant that they are also going after them for copyright and Trade Dress.

Also interesting that Crypto were approached by WotC and refused to pay them off. Suspect they believe they can win the case on the basis of adding so much to the original.


Total guesswork from me : Cory likes to bite off more than he can chew and it may be him that had them go full steam ahead and ignore WotC. Crypto may end up having to make significant changes to many things, for example the GUI and many cards. But there is more than enough innovation for Crypto to take something from the case. Also it would not surprise me in the least if WotC make a play to flat out buy Crypto itself.


edit : interesting article linked on the Hex forums from Gamasutra on copyright infringement :Gamasutra - Clone Wars: The Five Most Important Cases Every Game Developer Should Know
 
ronne

ronne

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Played for about 5 minutes and knew this was coming. They are gonna have to settle or lose miserably.
 
Vaclav

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Pyros_sl said:
Not to that extent. But they did sue pokemon at least and probably a few more, so yeah it's a thing.
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Did they? They produced it in the US.... did the Pokemon people decide to just sell it to them after the suit or something?

And from what I've seen of Hex, besides mana generation it's all really, really close to MTG in mechanics. There's very little that isn't in the basic core of MTG that they skipped copying in some form - except mana generation.

Remove the art and names, and place a light player in front of both (with mana obfuscated just "You've got X mana available") and I think you'd have a hard time having most people identify which is which since past that the differences are small and mostly in lingo for the same exact mechanics.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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Well the suit wasn't for a while, apparently at some point Nintendo decided to start doing their own releases and WotC didn't like it so they sued as soon as their contract ended, they settled a few months later without going to court though. I thought I remembered another suit but can't really find articles about it, maybe it was a minor thing or maybe it was D&D related, so that's mostly that.
 
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Man0warr

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HEX was/is pretty much going to be my online fix for MTG since their client is terrible.

No card game can touch MTG for real life competitive play, every one that has tried has failed. Just don't have the infrastructure to compete with Wizard's Pro Tour.

HEX wasn't trying to go that route either.
 
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velk

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Vaclav_sl said:
Remove the art and names, and place a light player in front of both (with mana obfuscated just "You've got X mana available") and I think you'd have a hard time having most people identify which is which since past that the differences are small and mostly in lingo for the same exact mechanics.
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The art and the names are the only thing that are copyrightable, game rules can't be copyrighted. It's all about the patent claims.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

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Considering the MTG patent from how it's been explained includes integral mechanics stuff like "tapping" - it seems like it does to a non-lawyer like myself. (with a little Law under my belt, but just MBA level - so kiddy pool)
 
Mist

Mist

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Understanding the Wizards v. Hex Lawsuit (in plain English) | Quiet Speculation - Learn. Trade. Profit.

Good article.

I can tell you that Cryptozoic were well aware of the patents when making the game. I think they believe that the patents in question are beatable. Copyright claims are really hard when dealing with video games copying other video games, so I don't see them winning there.

There's also the fact that they can't stop Hex from operating in countries that aren't the United States. WotC sued Ubisoft over Duels of the Champions but they continued to publish it everywhere but America until the case was resolved.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

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TL;DR from Mist's article for the lazy his summary (and he's a lawyer) is: "I predict that Wizards will win on its patent claims, it has a good shot at winning on copyright claims, and it will lose on its Lanham Act claims."

[Lanham Act = Trade Dress - which I see no way they could possibly win that part of the suit, personally - and I'm not so sure on copyright personally as a non-lawyer, but patent seems a lock to me, like he believes]
 
Mist

Mist

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The patent stuff seems pretty easy to beat or just pay up a licensing fee for, since almost every other TCG includes the same mechanics covered by the patent. And they might be able to get around the patent by not officially releasing until after the patent expires, which I think was their plan all along.
 
Kuro

Kuro

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This is neither new or exciting. This is about the 53rd time Wizards has done this, and it never goes anywhere. A majority of the still-active CCGs steal heavily from magic's core structures without paying royalties. Shit, L5R just added a "bow" (their surrogate name for Tap they've been using for two decades) symbol that intentionally looks rather similar to the Tap Symbol because they know there's balls-all Wizards can actually do to them.
 
Mist

Mist

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Man0warr_sl said:
It's basically a way to get some free settlement money out of whichever company they are suing.
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I don't even know if they get that. It's really just a way of delaying other companies from getting their product to market.
 
Vaclav

Vaclav

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L5R is a rather weird case considering it was a WOTC product for a while before being sold off, I'd imagine.
 
Kuro

Kuro

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And it was a non-WotC product before it was a WotC product
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I really wish it had stayed a WOTC product, Alderac Entertainment Group is about as competent as a quadriplegic chainsaw-juggler.
 
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Flight

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Kuro_sl said:
And it was a non-WotC product before it was a WotC product
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The makers of Lo5R were looking at going bust due to WotC litigation which led to them selling to WotC.

They've put quite a few companies out of business over the years. Their first major round of litigation was around '95 which had a massive effect on the CCG industry. Quite a few early CCGs were forced to stop by it, including the Star Trek one. And that was largely just about the tapping mechanic. After that action the few surviving CCGs and the ones that followed in years to come went out of their way to not copy MtGs mechanics and patents.

Most actions don't make it to court because people won't take the chance and choose to settle out of court and/or pay a license.
 
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velk

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Hmm, reading Hasbro's annual report for 2013 to see how much of a big deal for them this would be - hoo boy.

Gaming revenue was up 10% to 2 billion, with first credit given to magic the gathering for year on year revenue growth with extremely low manufacturing cost.

Yeah, they are almost certainly going for nuclear war ;p

Evidently mtg is much more of a thing these days than I thought it was.
 
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Vilgan_sl

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Man0warr_sl said:
HEX was/is pretty much going to be my online fix for MTG since their client is terrible.

No card game can touch MTG for real life competitive play, every one that has tried has failed. Just don't have the infrastructure to compete with Wizard's Pro Tour.

HEX wasn't trying to go that route either.
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For card games, I'd argue that poker and bridge both have far better real life competitive play scenes. Bridge is mostly populated by old people, but the high level competitions are way better handled than GPs and Pro Tours and despite cashing at GP Minneapolis I had more fun at most major (read: national level or above) bridge tournaments I've been too.
 
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