Home Improvement

Captain Suave said:

I don't care about my data, that horse left the barn 10 years ago. I just don't want to be hung out to dry with useless hardware if the vendor goes out of business or Google cancels the product line.

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I see. Google is notorious for canceling products, however, they are pretty invested in nest. You’d only lose your data connectivity to it and firmware updates if they did drop it. If you truly want your own roll your own thermostat you’ll need to look in embedded systems hobby forums if you want something legit. Folks making them with esp32s (for poors, in a big STM embedded fan). Imagine there’s less efficient rasp pi solutions as well.

Is the juice with the squeeze though? I’ll let you be the judge.

Foler said:

Nest. It’s mediocre hardware. Expect it to break every 2 years.

As in that is one to maybe avoid

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Our Nest thermostat is going on 7 or 8 years I think

Captain Suave said:

I don't care about my data, that horse left the barn 10 years ago. I just don't want to be hung out to dry with useless hardware if the vendor goes out of business or Google cancels the product line.

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I use a Sensi Touch on our upstairs and downstairs. I'm not aware of any cloud based stuff, maybe there is? Or maybe I'm not understanding what the limitation would be. It works fine as far as I'm aware if our internet goes out. I've never tried to connect it to any other service like Alexa or Google. Just use the app on my phone or walk up to it and touch it even moreso.

Control said:

Also, as has been similarly mentioned in a couple of other threads, forced updates that break, change, or outright remove existing features are fucking lovely.

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I’ve never had a software issue with nest thermostat. It’s the hardware design which makes the giant push button fail. Iirc this is a known issue.

Intrinsic said:

I use a Sensi Touch on our upstairs and downstairs. I'm not aware of any cloud based stuff, maybe there is? Or maybe I'm not understanding what the limitation would be. It works fine as far as I'm aware if our internet goes out. I've never tried to connect it to any other service like Alexa or Google. Just use the app on my phone or walk up to it and touch it even moreso.

Thermostat Comparison | Sensi US

Product comparison of different Sensi thermostats

sensi.copeland.com

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Let’s clear a few things up. When people say cloud based stuff they are implying it’s connected to the internet. IE nest is most likely using GCP infrastructure/services, even your sensi touch which integrates with Alexa somehow is touching AWS. Is it has Alexa onboard (as in you can talk to it) then it’s using the Alexa sdk. Now if you can control it via an Alexa device, then your data is (voice command) is being piped through AWS. From there it’s most likely being piped to your thermostat via a lightweight comms protocol specifically made for IoT such as MQTT. Amazon bought freeRtos a few years ago (originally an open source real time operating system for embedded systems). So it could even be running that and using AWS IoT core and then they could be using IoT green grass for IoT device management. I haven’t kept up to date on AWS IoT services since AWS is constantly releasing new services.

Anyways what I’m saying is that the ship has sailed. Personally out of the tradition big tech FAANG companies that due make hardware I would choose apple and Amazon any day over google or meta when it comes to trusting their devices with my privacy.

edit -

Now that I’m thinking about it, I’d be more concerned about companies that a china based or use Chinese designed/owned mcu/SoC like esp32. Lots of cheapo IoT devices use esp32s for their SoC because they are so damn cheap. Anyways this is getting long enough to go into an embedded systems thread so I’ll stop.

LOL shes all like pull the fir alarm when all she had to do is pull the fucking box to the floor and stomp it out or cover it with a towel or something.Its not like this was some grease fire. Im sure most of us had flames like this in the kitchen at one point or another when some paper or a kitchen towel gets lit. So like what do you do, call the fire department and just wait? Fucking dumb people.

Reminds me of that one Asian dude that ended up burning his whole apartment building down because of a small flame on his desk which he kept on feeding with more shit. Like WTF people are you this stupid?

Foler said:

Sorry just to clarify - I am feeding the sub panel on the coop with 240v, putting ground rods in and running branch circuits with overcurrent protection (gfci breakers) in that sub panel. When you refer to not installing the main bonding jumper in the sub panel, are you referring to someone thinking I am running a feeder from that sub panel to another sub panel? Just trying to clarify because the two sentences about ground rods seem to contradict unless what you’re referring to is the same setup I am.

thanks!

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Well, you never tie grounds and neutrals together in subpanels, so no MBJs.

I don't have a current copy of the NEC (I haven't done the construction side in years, now) but if I did I'd go look at what the current requirements for grounding and bonding are. That shit literally changes every edition, every 3 years, and it's a PITA.

I'm half tempted to order the 2023 book now, maybe with tabs and some of the Mike Holt books on edition changes (they're actually pretty good IMHO) but I'm not sure I'd spend much time looking at it.

So anyways, in my head I think I was thinking that if you could avoid setting up an actual subpanel and just run a branch circuit to that building (breaker at main panel, run circuit to separate building, and have it terminate at outlets there) then you could maybe avoid the ground rods at the separate building. As opposed to setting up an actual subpanels, then it would be seen as feeders, subpanel, and needing ground rods. *BUT* after thinking about it a bit, I'm honestly not 100% sure anymore. I know that at one point you *COULD* get away with that (no one in their right fucking mind would run a single 20A receptacle circuit from the main panel in their house to a separate building and then somehow...tie groundrods to it?!?) but if you asked me if that's currently true, and what the code specific language for that is, I honestly couldn't tell you.

But in your case you already have feeders pulled, are looking at a subpanel, so I'm pretty sure that you MUST add ground rod(s).

I think the requirements for ground rods at separate buildings is to help give a good path to ground for lightning strikes, so lightning doesn't blow back on your EGC to your main panel and find a path to the ground rod there. (Though I've seen lightning strikes in both resi and industrial and it seems like it's liable to split current in parallel between various paths, so giving it a path at a separate building may or may not eliminate the possibility of it feeding back to a main panel? I'm not an EE so /shrug, but an interesting thought). And it's not meant to address actual grounding, per se, as it's used in the NEC. 'Grounding' is really just a low impedance fault path back to the source, which is what the EGC provides.

The 2nd link is from a forum discussion from 2011 using 2008 NEC and is probably why I think that way about a single circuit to an outbuilding. I'm just not sure if that is still the language or not.









EDIT: changed some acronyms to EGC because I am fucking acronym dyslexic

I don’t know if this is the right place to post this but I’ll throw it out there to fish…

I need an automated front gate for my property. It needs to be smartphone/IoT integrated so I can control via app. So far it looks like some form of liftmaster controller.

In general reviews for all gate controllers seem mediocre. Over time it seems costs have been cut on gears etc but maybe liftmaster is the least worse. The plan is to get a capac module so I can integrate it with myq, which I don’t use but I’ve heard great things about. Then I think maybe an intercom like this with myq integration.

I know myq has Amazon key integration. I’ve found Amazon key app to be almost nonfunctional in the past. However what about UPS and FedEx deliveries - I don’t see any mention of how they would get in and I don’t want them calling me.

I guess my big question here is slide or swing gate? Property entrance is currently dirt but will probably transition it to gravel. Hear mixed things on both..

Pretty sure I don’t want double swing. It’s a little too “Gucci” for a homestead type property.

Also gate ideas would be appreciated. Gate needs to be able to withstand at least two large adult male black bears (400 lbs each) climbing it without getting wrecked.

Erronius said:

Well, you never tie grounds and neutrals together in subpanels, so no MBJs.

I don't have a current copy of the NEC (I haven't done the construction side in years, now) but if I did I'd go look at what the current requirements for grounding and bonding are. That shit literally changes every edition, every 3 years, and it's a PITA.

I'm half tempted to order the 2023 book now, maybe with tabs and some of the Mike Holt books on edition changes (they're actually pretty good IMHO) but I'm not sure I'd spend much time looking at it.

So anyways, in my head I think I was thinking that if you could avoid setting up an actual subpanel and just run a branch circuit to that building (breaker at main panel, run circuit to separate building, and have it terminate at outlets there) then you could maybe avoid the ground rods at the separate building. As opposed to setting up an actual subpanels, then it would be seen as feeders, subpanel, and needing ground rods. *BUT* after thinking about it a bit, I'm honestly not 100% sure anymore. I know that at one point you *COULD* get away with that (no one in their right fucking mind would run a single 20A receptacle circuit from the main panel in their house to a separate building and then somehow...tie groundrods to it?!?) but if you asked me if that's currently true, and what the code specific language for that is, I honestly couldn't tell you.

But in your case you already have feeders pulled, are looking at a subpanel, so I'm pretty sure that you MUST add ground rod(s).

I think the requirements for ground rods at separate buildings is to help give a good path to ground for lightning strikes, so lightning doesn't blow back on your EGC to your main panel and find a path to the ground rod there. (Though I've seen lightning strikes in both resi and industrial and it seems like it's liable to split current in parallel between various paths, so giving it a path at a separate building may or may not eliminate the possibility of it feeding back to a main panel? I'm not an EE so /shrug, but an interesting thought). And it's not meant to address actual grounding, per se, as it's used in the NEC. 'Grounding' is really just a low impedance fault path back to the source, which is what the EGC provides.

The 2nd link is from a forum discussion from 2011 using 2008 NEC and is probably why I think that way about a single circuit to an outbuilding. I'm just not sure if that is still the language or not.

Ground rods on sub panel detached garage

My inspector is telling me I'll need ground rods on a sub panel in a detached garage. I want to run a four wire feeder to the sub panel. 250.32(B)(1) states - "an equipment grounding conductor shall be run with the supply conductors and connected to the building or structure disconnecting means...

forums.mikeholt.com

Gec at separate structures

Per 2008 NEC Is a separate GEC required at each structure fed from a Main source which has a GEC? Per 2008 NEC Is a separate GEC required at each structure fed from a Main source which has a GEC? Yes. 250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s). (A)...

forums.mikeholt.com

View attachment 496400


EDIT: changed some acronyms to EGC because I am fucking acronym dyslexic

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Kajiimagi said:

to further confuse the issue , assuming this is REALLY a chicken coop, livestock areas have their own special section of the NEC. I do not remember what it is as I never had to deal with it but I do remember it being there specifically for unique grounding requirements for livestock. Insert the 'achshullly' meme I guess.

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Thanks E and Kaj.

At this point I’ve decided to bring in an electrician from a company I’ve used before and trust to see if he would be willing to take over the project and salvage if possible. In hindsight the liability with doing my own electric at this scale isn’t worth it. It’s been extremely interesting learning experience though from a technically perspective. In the coming months I need to run underground electric for a shed about 200 ft away from house and an automated gate about 300 ft away and the juice ain’t worth the squeeze for me to be putting in my own unpermitted electrical. Also my main just had the most shit location on the side corner of a house between corner and window next to meter (which has underground being run to it) so while there’s plenty of space in the panel, at this point it’s way too much underground conduit all trying to make it into a small area without being ghetto and going over windows.

That’s why I mentioned running a feeder from the main to a sub on same side of house but on middle of exterior wall where there’s tons of room.

He’s coming tomorrow. I’ll let you know what he says..

Kajiimagi said:

yeah that's probably the best bet. I'm curious now about the livestock codes, I'll look it up when I can find time. I had the code that I used a lot 'memorized' but it's 100% true 'use it or lose it' and the only time I read/looked at the special conditions for livestock was for my contractors license in 96-7 or so. Fuck I'm old.

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I don’t even have Florida ag classification (although I am zoned ag) so I don’t benefit from any ag class permit related stuff either.

I always thought the stuff for dairies was weird.

What I was always told was that even with GFCIs you could still get odd differentials in potential that, while too low to trip a GFCI, were enough to bother dairy cows and affect their production. In a way it kind of makes sense...always wet/damp, cows shitting everywhere, equipment attached to their teats, lots of milking equipment everywhere, standing on wet concrete the entire time...I guess I get it, but with the equipotential bonding they almost treat it like it's an industrial swimming pool.