How to addict consumers to a real next-generation MMO
- Thread starter Qhue
- Start date
-
Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
I'm using a very similar system in a turn based web RPG I'm working on (it's a hobby project, so chances are pretty small it will ever be in a state that is fit for public consumption though). The only real difference compared to your system is that the penalty for death in my game is just that you lose your progress and end up back at your base (and thus missing out on a chance at the better loot further into the dungeon). However, since you have a limited amount of turns each day its a fairly significant penalty.
With all the skills in WoW how many specs are viable, and how many skills aside from the mainstream get used, fuck when i played all i did was cast dots and fucking shadowbolt shit on my warlock, EVEN though i had like 20 buttons, yeah its fun to have those abilities to use in certain situations, having shadow power (or whatever) hotkey'd won me alot of fights in pvp vs other warlocks that didnt use it, or vs shadow priest but i never used that shit in raids really maybe two fights? it was essentially a waste unless i was going against a warlock/shadow priest in pvp.
Point is they could stand to get rid of some of the very very situational skills.
WoW has the worst designers and best engineers in the industry. You could replace the WoW gameplay design team with a bunch of leprous, retarded apes and the game would still be a smash hit thanks to the engineers and animators. I could design WoW's gameplay systems to success with them. You could. Anyone can.
Balance is severely overrated. They've homogenized to the point where they've cannibalized their own game.
If you want to design an MMO, the skills, player advancement, anything a character does or achieves, has to be first considered in the context of the world the player is in and the players with whom they interact.
The question isn't 'how many useful skills can we give a paladin?'; it's 'what type of skills can we give a paladin that will allow them to affect the world and the players around them in cool and unique ways, positively and negatively?'
The player interactions... what you can DO TO, WITH, AMONG, UPON, etc other players, attack them, make for them, assist them, steal from them, barter with them, etc is the first and most important question of any skill or ability.
And of course, WoW wholly fails at this.
This is the system I'd like to see:
Fisty Cuffs the monk gets 6 combat skills: Throat Jab, Nutstrike, Uppercut, Donkeypunch, Haymaker and Kidney Crusher. He also gets a few situational skills: Feign Death, Mend, Anti-CC junk, whatever. Those aren't terribly important for this situation.
Now, Fisty doesn't level. He gets all of his skills right off the bat. They're useful at first, but nothing spectacular. They get the job done. Through his adventures, Fisty ends up killing 1,000 humanoids with Nutstrike. This automatically grants Nutstrike a passive 20% bonus against humanoids. He completes a Big Bad Dungeon, the boss of which is a Helldonkey. He then gets Fiery Donkeypunch, which has a chance of igniting his enemies. Fisty also helps a little old lady cross a swamp full of dangerous creatures. She ends up dying, but in the process she teaches Fisty the Catheterizer, an upgrade to Kidney Crusher that causes his enemies to bleed profusely out of their pee-hole.
During this time Fisty has collected magic items that also enhance his skills. He's found a rhinestone glove that gives his attacks a chance to stun his enemy. He's found kick-ass shades that allow him to hit the kidneys of his enemies with more accuracy when using Kidney Crusher, making it hurt more. He's found shit I can't think of because I've been awake for almost 24 hours and it's 5am.
The really interesting shit is when he and his friends kill Deaththing the Dragon. It was a hard fight, but it earned Fisty the ability to use the Dragon Uppercut, which sheathes his arm in a fiery dragon, because that shit's tight, yo. It also does like 60% more damage than his normal Uppercut, which is cool too.
Now that Fisty has earned more powerful abilities, he can fight more powerful bad guys. Because he's on a journey. A journey to earn more powerful abilities. And gear.
I guess what I'm saying is I'm tired of leveling up. There are other ways to advance the character. I like that example because it a) allows for a fairly steady progression for abilities (which are guaranteed for completeing certain events) and b) allows for more interesting gear, because +stats are boring as fuck.
Yes, I know it's not as simple as I just described, and I probably made a mess of even that, but shut up.
Fisty Cuffs the monk gets 6 combat skills: Throat Jab, Nutstrike, Uppercut, Donkeypunch, Haymaker and Kidney Crusher. He also gets a few situational skills: Feign Death, Mend, Anti-CC junk, whatever. Those aren't terribly important for this situation.
Now, Fisty doesn't level. He gets all of his skills right off the bat. They're useful at first, but nothing spectacular. They get the job done. Through his adventures, Fisty ends up killing 1,000 humanoids with Nutstrike. This automatically grants Nutstrike a passive 20% bonus against humanoids. He completes a Big Bad Dungeon, the boss of which is a Helldonkey. He then gets Fiery Donkeypunch, which has a chance of igniting his enemies. Fisty also helps a little old lady cross a swamp full of dangerous creatures. She ends up dying, but in the process she teaches Fisty the Catheterizer, an upgrade to Kidney Crusher that causes his enemies to bleed profusely out of their pee-hole.
During this time Fisty has collected magic items that also enhance his skills. He's found a rhinestone glove that gives his attacks a chance to stun his enemy. He's found kick-ass shades that allow him to hit the kidneys of his enemies with more accuracy when using Kidney Crusher, making it hurt more. He's found shit I can't think of because I've been awake for almost 24 hours and it's 5am.
The really interesting shit is when he and his friends kill Deaththing the Dragon. It was a hard fight, but it earned Fisty the ability to use the Dragon Uppercut, which sheathes his arm in a fiery dragon, because that shit's tight, yo. It also does like 60% more damage than his normal Uppercut, which is cool too.
Now that Fisty has earned more powerful abilities, he can fight more powerful bad guys. Because he's on a journey. A journey to earn more powerful abilities. And gear.
I guess what I'm saying is I'm tired of leveling up. There are other ways to advance the character. I like that example because it a) allows for a fairly steady progression for abilities (which are guaranteed for completeing certain events) and b) allows for more interesting gear, because +stats are boring as fuck.
Yes, I know it's not as simple as I just described, and I probably made a mess of even that, but shut up.
Make the upgrades unique? Make some of them concurrent, some of them not? Make some of them dependent on different variables, like usage, equipped gear or the gauge of your penis piercing?
It's not that hard to expand on an idea.
It's not that hard to expand on an idea.
Sounds like POE with it's gem system almost. PoE's class system and gem system is probably the best innovation in the last decade when it comes to class design/gear design/leveling design.
Xequecal
Trump's Staff
- 11,559
- -2,388
Personally I think the best way to give an MMO longevity is to find some way to implement an EQ-like AA system without making the huge grind mandatory. What I think could work is that you have AAs like EQ does, and just have a "heroic mode" for all of the content which is simply the same content with the AAs turned off. That way, you don't have to grind at all to see the endgame, but at the same time anyone can beat any of the content if they really want to, even people really bad at the game.
get rid of lock-out timers. its one of the stupidest thing ever put into mmorpgs, that was only added to control and limit player progression. if i want to max out in 1 day i should be able too.
Heallun
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 1,100
- 1,073
POE's system is really held back by the support gem system, though. Ideally you'll want a 6L item with 1 skill on it. If you use a 2h you may get another 6L but if you're a spec that uses 1h / shield you end up with two 3Ls, which make for okay support spells (curses, skeleton totem etc) but garbage for primary damage abilities. POE's system suffers badly from one or sometimes two ability builds and auras running the rest of it. The game would be well served to make 3L the max possible (perhaps have chests with two 3Ls) so that players would have at least 2 perhaps 3 abilities of roughly equal strength to use in tandem. I loved my ground-slam marauder as much as the next guy, but honestly it was the only thing you'd bother using once it was supported correctly (especially when i got a marohi erqi early on
).
Selix
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 2,149
- 4
Hmm. Are you sure about this? From my experience I think the problem is more that they need to balance melee more in general (nod to the incoming patch) but I don't see the 5L/6L system as a part of the problem.POE's system is really held back by the support gem system, though. Ideally you'll want a 6L item with 1 skill on it. If you use a 2h you may get another 6L but if you're a spec that uses 1h / shield you end up with two 3Ls, which make for okay support spells (curses, skeleton totem etc) but garbage for primary damage abilities. POE's system suffers badly from one or sometimes two ability builds and auras running the rest of it. The game would be well served to make 3L the max possible (perhaps have chests with two 3Ls) so that players would have at least 2 perhaps 3 abilities of roughly equal strength to use in tandem. I loved my ground-slam marauder as much as the next guy, but honestly it was the only thing you'd bother using once it was supported correctly (especially when i got a marohi erqi early on
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
- 25,946
- 113,036
Actually, I really do like PoE's tree/upgrade system. Put that system in with a notoriety/fame system for dungeon access (That degrades on death) and have dungeons follow rules similar to endless dungeons. Then make the world open instead of generated per game (More like an MMO.)--and you'd have the PvE side of the game good for me.
But the whole point of grinding and gear obtainment would be to show it off in the MOBA match up. The different phases of a MOBA, I think, really give a great opportunity to have farmed gear matter (Late game), while still having skill greatly affect the game (Early game/lane phase). MOBA style PvP in a "hybrid" MMO/ARPG setting, imo, could be done very, very well if someone were to bridge the genre gap. (Obviously it would never be balanced enough to be an "E-sport", but I hate that games become limited due to that purpose).
Also, I think it would be really exciting to have a new genre. One of the things I thought was great about LoL was them adding an "out of match", RPG like progression to their game. Yeah, I know they did it mostly to make money--but it added another layer to the game. Just wish some company would take it further and actually have it so "summoners" could exist in the world around where a game like LoL takes place, for example--and I think that "world" would lend itself well to an ARPG (Like PoE) in a persistent state.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
- 15,564
- 11,865
yeah, that was crazy talk
that fight to get the nearly impossible optimum item is the entire point..
That you have to comprise and run a 4 socket with good stats, or the like for much of your playtime, all the while trying to farm, craft that perfect gear is exactly what keeps you playing.
A 6 socket with shit stats, or a 4 socket with good stats. a choice you have to make.
Its effectively an item based system "soft cap".
The only real problem was PoE's strong favoring for +life as a stat. Which made some of the alternative builds not viable. high armor, or skill based survival, weren't really options.
(ps blood magic should be removed entirely, and mana reworked a bit, to compensate for low mana classes.)
Aaron
Goonsquad Officer
- 8,885
- 20,943
I still don't understand why more devs haven't copied to some extent Eve's skill system. Technically speaking, you can have a day old character in a cheap ass frigate with minimal training in EW or warp scrambling (Eve's version of CC) and they'll be able to fly along side a group of old and mid characters and still be viable in PVP. Stick them in a looting frigate and they can help out in PVE. Sure, there's also a lot they won't be able to do, such as be the main DPS in fights or hold their own solo, but there's nothing stopping them jumping into 0.0 and making a life out there, hell there have been characters in Eve that have done that and posted awesome stories on the forums.
Also, you're not locked into one set, any character can do anything - or nothing. You can have year old characters with absolutely no combat training, but are manufacturing and trade moguls, or a pure mining character, or a guy who is just about combat, or a mix of all, a jack of all trades. The freedom is amazing and something I respect the Eve devs for giving the player base.
Yet ten years in, I can't think of any game that even remotely tries to copy it.
And I like the idea of an achievement based system as someone mentioned. One of the bane's of WoW now is how everything is super gated. You level up one character, ok, you have to jump through hoops and do dailies til your dick drops off to get rep and all that, but fuck me if I'm going to spend my time doing that with alts now. If my hunter main has managed to earn exalted status with Panda Pusher Clan or whatever, then he should be able to put in a good word for my shaman alt since it's on the same damn account.
But back to the OP's post, your game is one I would try. One of the problems of the level system - and the level cap raising expac system - is the inevitable hot bar bloat, as one of the supposed carrots of levelling are new abilities. This leaves you with a shit ton of abilities, and half the time people either forget or don't know how to use them all, so I like the idea of ability restrictions. 6-8 combat abilities, 2-3 utility abilities and 2-3 long cooldown abilities. As often as not there will almost always be underutilized abilities, so what expacs can do is either alter those abilites, or remove them and add new ones.
Also, you're not locked into one set, any character can do anything - or nothing. You can have year old characters with absolutely no combat training, but are manufacturing and trade moguls, or a pure mining character, or a guy who is just about combat, or a mix of all, a jack of all trades. The freedom is amazing and something I respect the Eve devs for giving the player base.
Yet ten years in, I can't think of any game that even remotely tries to copy it.
And I like the idea of an achievement based system as someone mentioned. One of the bane's of WoW now is how everything is super gated. You level up one character, ok, you have to jump through hoops and do dailies til your dick drops off to get rep and all that, but fuck me if I'm going to spend my time doing that with alts now. If my hunter main has managed to earn exalted status with Panda Pusher Clan or whatever, then he should be able to put in a good word for my shaman alt since it's on the same damn account.
But back to the OP's post, your game is one I would try. One of the problems of the level system - and the level cap raising expac system - is the inevitable hot bar bloat, as one of the supposed carrots of levelling are new abilities. This leaves you with a shit ton of abilities, and half the time people either forget or don't know how to use them all, so I like the idea of ability restrictions. 6-8 combat abilities, 2-3 utility abilities and 2-3 long cooldown abilities. As often as not there will almost always be underutilized abilities, so what expacs can do is either alter those abilites, or remove them and add new ones.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
- 15,564
- 11,865
good sandbox mmos tend to get marred down one way or other. I find poorly thought out pvp has killed more then it should.
Eve's skill system isn't directly tied to being a sandbox though. it could be done in other formats. Kotor, and neverwinter used the basic system for crafting skills.
Eve's skill system isn't directly tied to being a sandbox though. it could be done in other formats. Kotor, and neverwinter used the basic system for crafting skills.
Heallun
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 1,100
- 1,073
Chaos are cheap. It takes fucking crazy amounts of fusing to reliably get a 6L chest / 2h. You could use 20-25 chaos and get top tier damage modifications / IAS modifications on a 2h. Doing that with fusings is foolhardy. It's far easier to get the sockets and then get the stats. Now that people have been farming highest tier maps for some time, getting high ilvl gear isn't particularly difficult.
POE melee have needed some work for some time, though, especially in hardcore. The desyncing with whirling blades / leap slam is unacceptable in hardcore maps.
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
- 1,409
- 185
The problem with this skill reduction idea is that encounters also have less variety.
for example in ddo my wizard has a crapton of spells. Why ? Because different encounters require different tactics. Wow does not have level of complexity and depth either.
Also there are buffs, utility etc. So why remove thus staple of RPGs ?
Because the way games are going and have been is toward a dumbed down action experience....Which is fun but does nothing for folks that are interested in tactics and depth.
neverwinter is a perfect example of this. The game has everything combat wise that those looking for an ultra simple combat experience.
so what if you use an ability infrequently ? At least there are options..and your class through those special skills gets it's unique qualities which mmos are also moving away from.
look at swtor most of the classes are carbon copies with animation differences only.... And It's boring as shit
for example in ddo my wizard has a crapton of spells. Why ? Because different encounters require different tactics. Wow does not have level of complexity and depth either.
Also there are buffs, utility etc. So why remove thus staple of RPGs ?
Because the way games are going and have been is toward a dumbed down action experience....Which is fun but does nothing for folks that are interested in tactics and depth.
neverwinter is a perfect example of this. The game has everything combat wise that those looking for an ultra simple combat experience.
so what if you use an ability infrequently ? At least there are options..and your class through those special skills gets it's unique qualities which mmos are also moving away from.
look at swtor most of the classes are carbon copies with animation differences only.... And It's boring as shit