How would you re-socialize MMOs?

Cinge · Nov 4, 2013

shabushabu_sl said:
Bullshit. What the fuck do you talk about with guildmates when most MMOs today are solo experiences 90% of the way? My point was I like talking about game mechanics with people of all backgrounds and in the past this was a necessity to complete content... even trash mobs took teamwork...Duh that shit is nearly all gone now.

Again you live in a bubble. Yes games have gone away from "Forced" grouping to progress and they are designed so people can solo to max. Guess what though, that is not the only option. You want socialization , then reach out and grab it. If I don't have RL friends playing at launch or a pre-guild, the first thing I do is ask in the zone chat of the starter zone if anyone starting wants to group up and quest, there's no penalty for it and its a lot more fun with people to talk to while questing(even better if I can make a trio). Players choose to either go solo or only group up with friends/guild mates or to just do the occasional group content then back to solo.

Hell most games still allow a full group to grind away to max if they feel so compelled to do so, but again players don't want too.

Less crying about game companies not forcing others to talk to you and more actually putting in effort to socialize outside your bubble.

Merlin_sl · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
Hell most games still allow a full group to grind away to max if they feel so compelled to do so, but again players don't want too.

The fact of the matter is, humans, and gamers are human, will always take the path of least resistance. And since developers have all but abandoned requiring players to group, instead offering a much easier, solo, path to top level, that is what gamers will do. They do it because its easier, not because they don't want to. If you could solo raid mobs, guilds would cease to exist. They only exist because raid mobs REQUIRE multiple groups of players working together to accomplish a goal. Players will, most of the time, do what is required of the game so they can play.

Cinge · Nov 4, 2013

Merlin_sl said:
The fact of the matter is, humans, and gamers are human, will always take the path of least resistance. And since developers have all but abandoned requiring players to group, instead offering a much easier, solo, path to top level, that is what gamers will do. They do it because its easier, not because they don't want to. If you could solo raid mobs, guilds would cease to exist. They only exist because raid mobs REQUIRE multiple groups of players working together to accomplish a goal. Players will, most of the time, do what is required of the game so they can play.

So players are incapable of making any choices and need developers/games to tell them what to do, to hold their hands. So in previous games you didn't socialize by choice, it wasn't what you wanted, you only did it because the game required you too. If players wanted socialization they would do it, not require the game to do it for them,so based on that and your statement, gamers don't want socialization, since when given the choice they choose not to do it and only did it before because the game required it. Talk about hilarious.

shabushabu · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
Again you live in a bubble. Yes games have gone away from "Forced" grouping to progress and they are designed so people can solo to max. Guess what though, that is not the only option. You want socialization , then reach out and grab it. If I don't have RL friends playing at launch or a pre-guild, the first thing I do is ask in the zone chat of the starter zone if anyone starting wants to group up and quest, there's no penalty for it and its a lot more fun with people to talk to while questing(even better if I can make a trio). Players choose to either go solo or only group up with friends/guild mates or to just do the occasional group content then back to solo.

Hell most games still allow a full group to grind away to max if they feel so compelled to do so, but again players don't want too.

Less crying about game companies not forcing others to talk to you and more actually putting in effort to socialize outside your bubble.

This conversation has been had 1000 times over.. games have changed and this is a thread on socialization I thought and I was talking about ways to return socialization to MMOs. Do you have any ideas or are you just claiming that we don't need to make a change. Stop the personal attacking and offer some ideas then we can have a dialogue perhaps else you are trolling and I shall ignore.

For the record, i am not saying that forced grouping or any age old mechanic is the ONLY way to make an MMO social, its just one the only ways that has worked if your goal is socialization. Forced grouping has drawbacks as you have pointed out but the problem is the new titles have had this and that taken out and overall reduced the socialization in its entirety. Grouping and encounter complexity are 2 ways that you can add socialization back but there are probably other ways as well that won't deter your solo to cap experience, perhaps others have ideas around this ?

shabushabu · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
So players are incapable of making any choices and need developers/games to tell them what to do, to hold their hands. So in previous games you didn't socialize by choice, it wasn't what you wanted, you only did it because the game required you too. If players wanted socialization they would do it, not require the game to do it for them,so based on that and your statement, gamers don't want socialization, since when given the choice they choose not to do it and only did it before because the game required it. Talk about hilarious.

people will always go with the easy path and if solo is it ( which it has been ) that's where most people go. Even as an outgoing and "social" person there is not much of a community created if most of the players are not socializing you know.

Bruman · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
So players are incapable of making any choices and need developers/games to tell them what to do, to hold their hands. So in previous games you didn't socialize by choice, it wasn't what you wanted, you only did it because the game required you too. If players wanted socialization they would do it, not require the game to do it for them,so based on that and your statement, gamers don't want socialization, since when given the choice they choose not to do it and only did it before because the game required it. Talk about hilarious.

This is pretty much the truth (even though I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic).

Even in EQ, all people did was bitch about having to group, and there was much hatred spewed forth towards classes that could solo well. This is (one of) the reasons many people left EQ and started in WoW. The ability to solo progress.

Cinge · Nov 4, 2013

Bruman_sl said:
This is pretty much the truth (even though I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic).

Even in EQ, all people did was bitch about having to group, and there was much hatred spewed forth towards classes that could solo well. This is (one of) the reasons many people left EQ and started in WoW. The ability to solo progress.

Not really just funny he basically admitted players didn't socialize in EQ because they wanted to, they only did it because the game required it and when given the choice to socialize or not socialize players choose not too. Yet they still cry for a game to force socialization on them , when they already forgot they didn't want it in the first place. Talk about hypocrisy and going in circles.

Merlin_sl · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
Not really just funny he basically admitted players didn't socialize in EQ because they wanted to, they only did it because the game required it and when given the choice to socialize or not socialize players choose not too. Yet they still cry for a game to force socialization on them , when they already forgot they didn't want it in the first place. Talk about hypocrisy and going in circles.

People did not leave EQ because they were forced to group. Lets get that out of the way (although I realize that was not your quote). It somewhat like politics. Do people really know what is good for them? The father away we get from the basic mechanics of the genre, the less time people spend online playing. Companies are dropping insane amounts of money to build MMO's after WOW realized the success it had, yet opinions like yours, that people do notwantto group have had a heavy influence on the design of these games. And, /shock, these games are not seeing any sort of real success. Players are spending less time, and money playing MMO's. Just look at the title. Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. MULTIPLAYER. Now seeing as we are not sniping each other behind building in a fantasy setting, where is the multiplayer if players are not grouping together to take down mobs? What is the entire point of an MMO is no one is bothering to talk to anyone else outside of a few people on voice chat? Your basically stripping the mechanics of the game to match your own playstyle, then proclaiming that this is what people want.

Players made friends, they made enemies, they got on lists to get in groups, most of them had long discussions about all kinds of things while waiting for mobs in KC, Seb etc.... After spending a few hours grouping and talking, those with skill would put each other on friends lists for groups in the future, or invite them to raids, or ask them to join guilds etc... If all your doing is soling through the entire game, why even play an MMO?

Thengel · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
If I don't have RL friends playing at launch or a pre-guild, the first thing I do is ask in the zone chat of the starter zone if anyone starting wants to group up and quest,there's no penalty for itand its a lot more fun with people to talk to while questing(even better if I can make a trio).

I'm not sure what game you are playing, but I've found this to generally be FALSE. There are penalties for grouping up, including but not limited to - reduced EXP for killing, increased time to complete quests due to splitting quest drops, reduced cash / item drops, etc. etc. etc. Obviously these will vary by what game you are talking about, but many games actually do have very real reasons NOT to group.

Cinge · Nov 4, 2013

Thengel_sl said:
I'm not sure what game you are playing, but I've found this to generally be FALSE. There are penalties for grouping up, including but not limited to - reduced EXP for killing, increased time to complete quests due to splitting quest drops, reduced cash / item drops, etc. etc. etc. Obviously these will vary by what game you are talking about, but many games actually do have very real reasons NOT to group.

If you are racing for world first or some such sure, but other then that its nothing. I did it in WoW, swtor, FFXIV, gw2 etc and still keep up with the top end except for the group of super hardcore trying to be first to max. I'd rather have company while progressing.

Also splitting quest drops? You are killing mobs twice as fast or twice as many at the same time, which evens out drops and exp and cash etc. The penalty is really non existent. The only real downside is for, like I said, people competing for world first or first to max etc. Since when you group up you might have to wait for them for AFKs or other things before heading out again.

Thengel · Nov 4, 2013

cinge_sl said:
If you are racing for world first or some such sure, but other then that its nothing. I did it in WoW, swtor, FFXIV, gw2 etc and still keep up with the top end except for the group of super hardcore trying to be first to max. I'd rather have company while progressing.

Also splitting quest drops? You are killing mobs twice as fast or twice as many at the same time, which evens out drops and exp and cash etc. The penalty is really non existent. The only real downside is for, like I said, people competing for world first or first to max etc. Since when you group up you might have to wait for them for AFKs or other things before heading out again.

Just because you did it, and you CAN do it, doesn't mean there are no penalties for doing so, as you claim. I'd rather have company while progressing as well, and have done this often. That doesn't mean that there weren't penalties for doing so. In general you can't kill twice as fast, because of limited spawns, leashing, or competition.

Merlin_sl · Nov 4, 2013

Thengel_sl said:
I'm not sure what game you are playing, but I've found this to generally be FALSE. There are penalties for grouping up, including but not limited to - reduced EXP for killing, increased time to complete quests due to splitting quest drops, reduced cash / item drops, etc. etc. etc. Obviously these will vary by what game you are talking about, but many games actually do have very real reasons NOT to group.

After about level 7 in Everquest, the majority of mobs could not be solo'd. They required a group. Now if you grew up playing WOW, then yes, your statement makes sense. But unless you were a necro, or later on a bard or wizard in CS, you better get a group.

Thengel · Nov 4, 2013

Merlin_sl said:
After about level 7 in Everquest, the majority of mobs could not be solo'd. They required a group. Now if you grew up playing WOW, then yes, your statement makes sense. But unless you were a necro, or later on a bard or wizard in CS, you better get a group.

Pretty sure you missed the entire conversation, which was not about Everquest, but games since then. No, I did not grow up playing WOW. Your post makes *zero sense*

Asherah · Nov 4, 2013

Merlin_sl said:
The fact of the matter is, humans, and gamers are human, will always take the path of least resistance. And since developers have all but abandoned requiring players to group, instead offering a much easier, solo, path to top level, that is what gamers will do. They do it because its easier, not because they don't want to. If you could solo raid mobs, guilds would cease to exist. They only exist because raid mobs REQUIRE multiple groups of players working together to accomplish a goal. Players will, most of the time, do what is required of the game so they can play.

Guilds were definitely alive and well in both UO and SWG and there was no real need for grouping in those games. That said, although I personally tend to group while leveling because it's more fun I do agree that it should be more beneficial.

shabushabu · Nov 4, 2013

Asherah_sl said:
Guilds were definitely alive and well in both UO and SWG and there was no real need for grouping in those games. That said, although I personally tend to group while leveling because it's more fun I do agree that it should be more beneficial.

Interesting you mention SWG here because SWG had some of the best socialization of any MMO just because of the non combat things they had ( doc buffs, entertainer buffs, crafting, towns etc, early jedi etc etc. )... Some combat socialization however ( grouping some dungeons, raids, and bounty hunting ).

It was fun to hang in a cantina before heading out and get buffs from an entertainer that was usually some chick/mangina who played at work or something all day.

Merlin_sl · Nov 4, 2013

Thengel_sl said:
Pretty sure you missed the entire conversation, which was not about Everquest, but games since then.

Wait a minute. That's not what you said. Here, let me quote you since you seem to have forgotten what you said:

Thengel_sl said:
I'm not sure what game you are playing, but I've found this to generally be FALSE.

So there you didn't state a specific game, in fact you questioned which game he was playing. Therefore, I used the OP's original topic to base my response on. The goal is to get players socializing again, and you specifically state reasons people would not want to group. You specifically stated penalties for grouping. Here, let me refresh your memory:

Thengel_sl said:
There are penalties for grouping up, including but not limited to - reduced EXP for killing, increased time to complete quests due to splitting quest drops, reduced cash / item drops, etc. etc. etc. Obviously these will vary by what game you are talking about, but many games actually do have very real reasons NOT to group.

Now if we use EQ as the basis for how to get players communicating again, then we go back to those mechanics, which in turn, makes your listed penalties incorrect, as Everquest "forced" grouping. I went back through the posts and did not see where you specifically exempted Everquest, and were referring to "other" games.

Thengel · Nov 4, 2013

Like I said, you missed the conversation. I never exempted Everquest, the post I was quoting did. Specifically, it was about games that "have gone away from "Forced" grouping to progress and they are designed so people can solo to max."

If your argument is that games designed for grouping (EQ) encourage grouping....no shit? His argument was the opposite, that games not designed around grouping (WoW, etc) had no penalties for grouping - which is what I was disagreeing with.

Dandai · Nov 5, 2013

My first character in EQ was a warrior. I really enjoyed playing him, but I had to wait literally 10 minutes between killing things,anything, because I would nearly die every fight, even to blue cons. Then I saw this mage doing his thing in the bandit camps in N Ro. I was in awe. He was non stop killing stuff. Breaking the camp looked rough, and he did have to zone a time or two, but he was doing it. I said "fuck being a warrior" and made my mage that same day and never looked back.

I had a lot of fun with my mage, but I did eventually box a cleric so I never had to rely on other people for rezes. Ya, I grouped a lot in Sol B, Seb, CoM, PoV (I spent at least a thousand hours in that cave south of the zone in), and finally Bastion of Thunder. But you know what I remember doing the most? Soloing in Lower Guk, Sol A, Burning Woods, Chardok, Crystal Caverns, VL, ToFS, CS, The Grey, Plane of Justice, and eventually Halls of Honor.

I spent waaay more time soloing content than I did grouping. I got a lot of hate for it as a mage, but I played the game a lot more than almost anyone else I knew. While they would be sitting at the entrance to Seb spamming "LFG," I'd be breaking the entry in Kaesora. While they were sitting in PoK, hoping for someone to start a PUG, I'd be soloing in the upper ledge in PoV between forming cave groups.

I guess what I'm getting at is, when I realized I didn't have to rely on someone else, I immediately took steps to make it so. I didn't want my ability to play to be restricted to my ability to find someone else. Conversely, I made a lot of friends, even a couple lifelong friends, and had a great time when I did group. But those experiences were few and far between. There's no way I would ever play a game where I am literally incapable of doing any (meaningful) content without another person.

Laura · Nov 5, 2013

cinge_sl said:
So players are incapable of making any choices and need developers/games to tell them what to do, to hold their hands.

The concept of games now discourage grouping.
Sure you can group with others but you're playing at a disadvantage.

Not only because monsters die within few seconds (solo) which means grouping is... just stupid.. Where's do class-roles come in when you can just solo everything? There's no need for team work when the whole world is soloable (except for instanced dungeons). Grouping means working together using your class-abilities to help your group mates. Support, Damage Dealing, Tanking, Pulling, Buffing, Control, Healing...etc. Again, when everything in the world is soloable there's no need to CC, Tank, Heal which means grouping is nothing but an inconvenience and to "Chat"? That's not what I want. I want to overcome a challenge with my friends as a team and without making monsters harder to deal with (i.e. not everything is soloable) then the whole point of group is moot.

And guess what "monsters don't offer challenges to groups" is not only the problem.
It's the quest-hubs design where players need to go back to Quest-Givers which gives you another problem. Unless you synch all your quests with everyone online then you will face this scenario "Thanks dude, I'm going to town to turn in this quest and take another one." that's ASSUMING he needed to group with you (and he doesn't need to group with you).

Let me give you another crappy game design, that you apparently love, which prevents grouping.
Class/Race specific locked quests which may lead to instances/phases... How can I group with you, when I'm told to go to point A to do my class quest when YOU are told to go to point B to do your class quest? If we hang out together all what we do is just waste our time helping with nothing.

Cinge, you will never get it.
I'm just writing this for other readers to read.

Siddar · Nov 5, 2013

Humans became social animals for one reason only that reason being because it keeps them alive. Almost all MMOG remove the threat of death from the game except as a minor nuisance. End result is MMOG become more representative of Hell them real life. Anti social behavior has almost zero cost associated with it. People that want to be assholes become like Jason and Freddy Krueger in that no matter how many times you kill them they just keep coming back. There are two basic threats of antisocial behavior at a evolutionary level one is being excluded from that the group and being killed as a result. The second is being considered a threat to the group and being killed by the group as a result. Current MMOG's remove both these threats and as a result antisocial behavior flourishes.

If you want to restore social interaction to MMOG's you need to do to things.

Create a real threat for not being in a group.

Empower the group structures in your game.

How would you re-socialize MMOs?

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

shitlord

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Molten Core Raider

Molten Core Raider

Golden Squire

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

shitlord

Golden Knight of the Realm

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Golden Knight of the Realm

shitlord

Golden Knight of the Realm

Silver Knight of the Realm

Molten Core Raider

shitlord

Golden Knight of the Realm

<WoW Guild Officer>

Lord Nagafen Raider

Bronze Baronet of the Realm