Yes, and I would argue that one of the main problems with current MMOs is that they tend to be focused on combat to the exclusion of everything else. In UO and SWG players could be productive members of society even if they did not output optimal DPS or knew all the DDR-style raid strats. Now if there was a game that had all the cool stuff from UO and SWG in addition to good PvE content that would be awesome.
How would you re-socialize MMOs?
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Punko
Macho Ma'am
- 8,007
- 12,836
EQ bards disagree with your statement. They had to hit at least 4 keys twice in 12 seconds to keep up a twist, and switch instruments in between if they wanted to be good.
Classes need to depend on each other, and individual players need to be required to rely on the community.
On top of that there needs to be a lot of liberty. If some guy wants to be an asshole, he should be able to. Just like the community should be able to punish him for it.
This, and then some inter-guild drama, and you are set. Being able to sell valuable items for RL cash helps stimulate this, along with a carefully picked number of raid targets, ensuring everyone feels some other guilds are keeping them down.
Hi gaiz. Jason keeps asking me to post random stuff here, so I finally got around to making an account. >.>
So, I'mma bump this andshare my latest editorial. It's all about socialization in MMOs and how it's drastically changed through the years, why, and how developers can try and reintroduce it. Feel free to share feedback and whatnot. I may not post here a ton, but I'll definitely continue lurking.
So, I'mma bump this andshare my latest editorial. It's all about socialization in MMOs and how it's drastically changed through the years, why, and how developers can try and reintroduce it. Feel free to share feedback and whatnot. I may not post here a ton, but I'll definitely continue lurking.
Socializing ? Is that the PC way of saying kiss the tank/healers ass . So you don't end up like long lines of rogues/hunters in ironforge LFG till they quit playing.
Does it mean level cap your chosen class , realize that endgame is not happening. Then reroll as the bitter healer , hoping that you can slide in your "real toon" when a dps quits playing in the end game.
Does it mean level cap your chosen class , realize that endgame is not happening. Then reroll as the bitter healer , hoping that you can slide in your "real toon" when a dps quits playing in the end game.
I don't think many would argue that MMOs are a lot less social today than back in the days of UO, EQ and SWG. However, the reasons for this decline are a bit less clear.Hi gaiz. Jason keeps asking me to post random stuff here, so I finally got around to making an account. >.>
So, I'mma bump this andshare my latest editorial. It's all about socialization in MMOs and how it's drastically changed through the years, why, and how developers can try and reintroduce it. Feel free to share feedback and whatnot. I may not post here a ton, but I'll definitely continue lurking.
Personally I would argue that the main reasons are:
* More emphasis on player performance
* Not much reason to cooperate outside of raids and dungeons
* Not much reason for players of different skill levels to cooperate
* More button mashing
* Very little downtime
* A different audience than back in the day
While I don't think LFD/LFR promotes socialization, they are not really the problem. Remove them and WoW would still be a social wasteland. Remember that entertaining healer that was always drunk during your friday Molten Core runs and died in the fire? Yeah, back then he was a funny guy that made you laugh. Today he would be a liability. The clicker mage? Gone after you missed the enrage timer a few times too many. This would have been fine if it only was the case in bleeding edge raid guilds, but as content got more demanding on an individual level and metrics became more easily available it spread throughout the game.
The other night in EQ2, I was working on my lil wizard's epic. The final step is to find a level 80+ woodworker to craft the wand. I'm not good at socializing, ok? I panicked! I did. I have 3 accounts so I was racking my brain, trying to remember if any of my alts are woodworkers. And how long would it take me to get to level 80?! I was freaking out. Why would EQ2 be FORCING me to talk to other players. That's BS!
But I finally just sucked it up, got in the craft channel and asked for someone to help me. A super nice player sent me a tell about a minute later and said he could log on his "woodie" and make it for me. I threw a handful of plat at him and much gratitude. He was really nice and I got my wand. It was all over, from chat to craft, in less than 5 minutes.
I guess my point is, the idea of being "forced" into socializing with other players sounds scary and not fun. But maybe it's not such a bad idea.
B/c in reality, it was kinda exciting to talk to someone outside my empty guildhall. Reaching out to an unknown person. But then, I'm the type of person who needs an excuse to do so.
As far as the article, it kinda sounds like "make a game that caters to every possible play-style and you have a winner". That's like saying "If this team had just scored more points, they would have won the game!". :/
But I finally just sucked it up, got in the craft channel and asked for someone to help me. A super nice player sent me a tell about a minute later and said he could log on his "woodie" and make it for me. I threw a handful of plat at him and much gratitude. He was really nice and I got my wand. It was all over, from chat to craft, in less than 5 minutes.
I guess my point is, the idea of being "forced" into socializing with other players sounds scary and not fun. But maybe it's not such a bad idea.
B/c in reality, it was kinda exciting to talk to someone outside my empty guildhall. Reaching out to an unknown person. But then, I'm the type of person who needs an excuse to do so.
As far as the article, it kinda sounds like "make a game that caters to every possible play-style and you have a winner". That's like saying "If this team had just scored more points, they would have won the game!". :/
shabushabu
Molten Core Raider
- 1,409
- 185
When MMOs originally became popular the draw or the big deal was the fact you could socialize and be part of a larger community, working as teams and in competition with many other people... Design philosophy was anything that "could" require interaction did and we have seen the pendulum swing so far to the "solo experience" that to me there is no point in playing MMOs anymore because single Player RPGs are just that much better. . .
The MMO industry is in a strange spot these days because these new titles have basically killed the best thing about MMORPGs... the gameplay was always not so great ( i.e. any single player game could be a better experience ) but the thing is it has not improved either and at the same time whittled away what made these games special in the first place which was player interaction.
Hopefully the pendulum swings back soon
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
- 8,370
- 10,403
Before we re-socialize, let's first say what we define as socialization?
There's two components to "social": One is talking to people, one is keeping track of people. Those are the two components, and if you only focus on one, you're not going to be very social.
The first, "talking to" is actually relatively simple.
- You need people to be in groups (so they have someone to talk to), which means, incentivizing being in a group and conversely, reducing the incentives of being alone. You don't wan't to go all the way to EQ where being alone meant you couldn't litterally play (this shit doesn't fly anymore. Sorry guys, but if you expect a MMO where people can't solo, you're going to get a Minimally Multiplayer Online game, not a Massive one). Things include reduced XP gain rate (simplest way: you gain full XP for any mob killed by your group. No "divided by 5 plus 20% group bonus", full share), having any skills (if you include collectable skills thru quests or signets-ala-GW1) or useful gear being group-only, etc.
- You need people being able to talk (meaning you don't ask them to mash buttons every GCD)
- You need people having something to talk about. The easiest and most obvious topic is... the game itself, so you need group-based combat to require talking, i.e. require a modicum of planning for encounters. "CC breaking" and "3 incs, caster first" are a first step to social interaction, even if a... little dry.
The second, "keeping track of" is a bit more difficult. You need to have reasons to keep track of people, and means to do so.
- You need a relatively small local population. I'd insert Dunbar number here, meaning that, at any given period of the game, you shouldn't be required to have "access" to more than 150 people. The usual way is that people segregate themselves into guilds and stop tracking the rest of the server, so I'm not going to delve into that, instead, until people find a guild, they shouldn't be exposed to too many people (meaning that the random LFG tool that puts you in a group with 8 different servers is out).
- You need an incentive to track people. Again, given that we're in a game, it means people have game skills you need (or, conversely game non-skills you want to avoid at all costs). Two alternatives suggest: combat skills, meaning your combat system segregates sharply good players from non good, or non-combat skills, meaning that you shouldn't be able to have all the non-combat skills you may want.
For the latter, it's important. The usual model of "you can select only two tradeskills/gathering skills" fails because you let alts get the missing skills. If you're serious about having people keeping track of others, you need to have your crafting/gathering skills be exclusive to your account. I've picked Leatherworking, I can't pick Smithing. All my characters are leatherworkers.
There's two components to "social": One is talking to people, one is keeping track of people. Those are the two components, and if you only focus on one, you're not going to be very social.
The first, "talking to" is actually relatively simple.
- You need people to be in groups (so they have someone to talk to), which means, incentivizing being in a group and conversely, reducing the incentives of being alone. You don't wan't to go all the way to EQ where being alone meant you couldn't litterally play (this shit doesn't fly anymore. Sorry guys, but if you expect a MMO where people can't solo, you're going to get a Minimally Multiplayer Online game, not a Massive one). Things include reduced XP gain rate (simplest way: you gain full XP for any mob killed by your group. No "divided by 5 plus 20% group bonus", full share), having any skills (if you include collectable skills thru quests or signets-ala-GW1) or useful gear being group-only, etc.
- You need people being able to talk (meaning you don't ask them to mash buttons every GCD)
- You need people having something to talk about. The easiest and most obvious topic is... the game itself, so you need group-based combat to require talking, i.e. require a modicum of planning for encounters. "CC breaking" and "3 incs, caster first" are a first step to social interaction, even if a... little dry.
The second, "keeping track of" is a bit more difficult. You need to have reasons to keep track of people, and means to do so.
- You need a relatively small local population. I'd insert Dunbar number here, meaning that, at any given period of the game, you shouldn't be required to have "access" to more than 150 people. The usual way is that people segregate themselves into guilds and stop tracking the rest of the server, so I'm not going to delve into that, instead, until people find a guild, they shouldn't be exposed to too many people (meaning that the random LFG tool that puts you in a group with 8 different servers is out).
- You need an incentive to track people. Again, given that we're in a game, it means people have game skills you need (or, conversely game non-skills you want to avoid at all costs). Two alternatives suggest: combat skills, meaning your combat system segregates sharply good players from non good, or non-combat skills, meaning that you shouldn't be able to have all the non-combat skills you may want.
For the latter, it's important. The usual model of "you can select only two tradeskills/gathering skills" fails because you let alts get the missing skills. If you're serious about having people keeping track of others, you need to have your crafting/gathering skills be exclusive to your account. I've picked Leatherworking, I can't pick Smithing. All my characters are leatherworkers.
Miele
Lord Nagafen Raider
- 916
- 48
The main issue is this: every "role" in the game is disposable: you lose a tank, you get another with two clicks and a short break, same for a healer, not even mention a dps.
Let's say I tanked well for a group, to the point the healer says something appreciative, I try to extend the conversation to see if it gets me somewhere (new friend? new guild?), but most of the time the end is "thanks all and bye bye" (if not the dreaded "ty bb"). Why? Well mostly because a dungeon is a 15-25 minutes affair, with no downtime, no breaks, usually no wipes. It's really hard to obtain more than a quick run for exp/loot/tokens and eventually a quick comment about the run quality.
Cross server LFD doesn't help either. Fact is new generation games treat players like consumables, or better, like bots that can do mistakes.
Wanna talk about crafting? Even worse. If I take as example EQ, in order to become a crafter one had to actually do some work: farm those spider silks or wolf pelts, or other different materials. It took time and dedication, still you could do anything by yourself, but could max only a single profession (if I recall correctly).
A quest actually required you to raise all the crafting professions (Coldain prayer shawl) and you had to actually go out there and farm griffon eggs, giant beards and walrus meats like there was no tomorrow, because few people were doing that to sell the materials (vendor scavenging helped to a point with some items admittely).
Nowadays if you consider that there is a central hub to purchase everything you need (auction house) and the fact that crafting is just a gold sink with a bunch of mouse clicks attached, all that is needed is a large amount of currency and a bit of time to waste.
I got no problems socializing, I just find it's very difficult thing to do: in short I have little to no chances to do it during my normal gameplay.
I'm not even asking about EQ levels of forced socialization here, I'd be happy with vanilla WoW or early EQ2: in fact vanilla EQ2 had a lot of group content before whiners had their say, so everything was changed to boredom-inducing soloable content and whiners left the game anyway as they always do. I often saw the I-must-solo-all-the-time crowd as a flock of locusts, leaving destruction and misery wherever they land.
WoW also removed almost all the elite mobs in the open world (rares in MoP were a nice addition at least, small consolation price).
Let's say I tanked well for a group, to the point the healer says something appreciative, I try to extend the conversation to see if it gets me somewhere (new friend? new guild?), but most of the time the end is "thanks all and bye bye" (if not the dreaded "ty bb"). Why? Well mostly because a dungeon is a 15-25 minutes affair, with no downtime, no breaks, usually no wipes. It's really hard to obtain more than a quick run for exp/loot/tokens and eventually a quick comment about the run quality.
Cross server LFD doesn't help either. Fact is new generation games treat players like consumables, or better, like bots that can do mistakes.
Wanna talk about crafting? Even worse. If I take as example EQ, in order to become a crafter one had to actually do some work: farm those spider silks or wolf pelts, or other different materials. It took time and dedication, still you could do anything by yourself, but could max only a single profession (if I recall correctly).
A quest actually required you to raise all the crafting professions (Coldain prayer shawl) and you had to actually go out there and farm griffon eggs, giant beards and walrus meats like there was no tomorrow, because few people were doing that to sell the materials (vendor scavenging helped to a point with some items admittely).
Nowadays if you consider that there is a central hub to purchase everything you need (auction house) and the fact that crafting is just a gold sink with a bunch of mouse clicks attached, all that is needed is a large amount of currency and a bit of time to waste.
I got no problems socializing, I just find it's very difficult thing to do: in short I have little to no chances to do it during my normal gameplay.
I'm not even asking about EQ levels of forced socialization here, I'd be happy with vanilla WoW or early EQ2: in fact vanilla EQ2 had a lot of group content before whiners had their say, so everything was changed to boredom-inducing soloable content and whiners left the game anyway as they always do. I often saw the I-must-solo-all-the-time crowd as a flock of locusts, leaving destruction and misery wherever they land.
WoW also removed almost all the elite mobs in the open world (rares in MoP were a nice addition at least, small consolation price).
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
- 8,370
- 10,403
That's because the WOW-type dungeon run is a bad model for group content. So much that, basically, they've invented scenarii because that's where this mode of player content tends to go naturally. At this point (since most people run dungeons to get JP/VP anyway), you could simply dispense with dungeons and replace them with scenarii, and it would be exactly the same, except you're usually outdoor in a scenario.
I've placed the combat system at the heart of the problem: your combat should require people to talk to each other before and during a fight. Downtime is not necessary : you need downtime if you want to force people to talk about something ELSE besides combat, but that runs into the problem that "random" people that just met each other have probably few common interests... except what they're here to do: play and fight. The no wipe is a consequence of not needing to talk: if you don't need to communicate, it's not a difficult combat because every other player in your group could be replaced by an AI, and thus you only wipe if one of the AI has a bug (i.e. a player doesn't know the fight).
JVIRUS
Golden Knight of the Realm
- 430
- 170
The most social games I've played are the ones with the least hand holding and "story driven content". Stuff like Eve, Shadowbane and Planetside have the most socializing for me because virtually all the content is purely player driven. Hard for someone to socialize with other humans when a human-like NPC is speaking you its story in real time audio.
Also ,I contend that players are socializing more than ever it just may appear the opposite because of 3rd party voice comms. Tech has moved on and the player base went with it.
Also ,I contend that players are socializing more than ever it just may appear the opposite because of 3rd party voice comms. Tech has moved on and the player base went with it.
Yeah, but most people are still unwilling to chat with strangers over voice com even if it's built into the game. And this means that you would either need slow paced combat or important cooperative non-combat activities to promote socialization between people that are not already friends. Since I'm not sure if the current generation of players would be able to accept slow paced combat I think the non-combat option is more realistic.
Sabbat
Trakanon Raider
- 1,940
- 822
The best groups I've ever had in every single game have had the minimum amount of communication. Shit gets done, when and how it's supposed too without lengthy diatribes by the tank, the party leader or some fucktard that has this great way of skipping a single pack of mobs that costs us more time than it gains. One shotting every boss in an instancewithouta laundry list of do's and don't should be the norm -- you know, because everyone knows their shit, and is on the same page.
The best groups I've had in EQ were the ones that we never, ever stopped pulling -- or even waited for a pull to arrive because I had shit parked waiting to be killed while the puller got back with more stuff. We paced ourselves to the content, never stopping for mana, or waiting to rezz some dumb dps that overaggro'd and got himself killed.
Sure, there was jokes, some miss tells and a few scraps of banter, but I've had that in WoW parties, Darkfall groups, EQ raids, Firefall thumping squads and FFXIV fate grinds.. and every other game in between.
The common theme amongst the groups that did talk wasbecause they wanted too. It might have been to tell the tank they sucked in WoW, it might have been to say how baked they were in EQ, or it might have been to say that the loot tables in Coil were fucked in FFXIV.
Not a single person was FORCED to do a fucking thing in all of those things. We talked because we wanted to say something.
The problem is, I don't care what it is you want to talk about. I couldn't be bothered to get into a screaming matching with a tank that can't hold aggro because he's a windowlicker. I don't give a single fuck how baked you are. I don't even remotely give a shit if you think drop rates in Coil are fucked (but I might go look it up after this run!).
Those people that I do want to talk with, will be the ones I'm guilded with, the ones I'm posting on a forum with and the ones I'm sitting on vent with. The rest of the people that have something to say of value, I'll gladly listen too. I've no desire at all, to be someones captive audience and listen to the whine about the current state of politics in a country I don't give a fuck about.
This bullshit about slowing down combat and breaks to FORCE people to talk is the most fucked up thing I have ever heard.
I agree that the most effective groups rarely need conversation. However, as mentioned before by others, if the main objective is just to shut up and do your job, why not just replace the players with bots? If the only people you want to interact with are the ones you already know, would not a regular co-op game be a better option? Why bother with the massive part?
Having played MMOs since the UO beta I feel that something has been lost. We have gone from a bold vision of virtual worlds to raid sweatshops. Sure, the early MMOs were far from perfect, but at least they tried.
Sabbat
Trakanon Raider
- 1,940
- 822
We know that bot code is terrible, but mostly it's because a bot can't adapt on the fly like real humans can. So while you could program a bot team to do a dungeon in WoW, if the tank decided to pull two groups, the bots would probably fail due to the added mechanics they would need to adjust too. That's the big draw card of having real players, being able to change the pace because you can handle it, while other groups may struggle with just standard fair. It's also about having people see you, while you're doing the cool stuff, or know you have done it by looking at you. That's something you can't do in single player games, and it's something that's overall meaningless in Co-Op because you all just did the same thing.. they know, they saw, they helped out.
MMOs give us a bigger pool of players to draw from (time zones, play time, experience, game play preference, yada yada), they don't all need to be on your friends list for it to be considered social or for that matter, off your friends list. It's the choice that's important.
It's you that has lost something, not the genre, you've lost your innocence. It's something that has been said so many countless times that I begin to wonder if people actually bother reflecting at all and saying "yeah, I remember when I didn't know shit, and someone helped me get to Butcherblock from Neriak" to "I found out about Thottbot, so when I couldn't find this NPC I was looking for I hit it up and whammo, I found him within minutes" to "I already know which class I'm going to play, how I'm going to spec it, and what boss does what, and when -- and I haven't even downloaded the game yet!".
We are far more social that we use to be, but the method of communication has changed -- and most people don't even recognise it.
Shit, remember when Conquest busted out the MC strats online -- nothing was (and never will be) the same afterward, every guild and its lootwhore was writing up strats, loot drops and kill shots like it was ... Facebook.
Mr Creed
Too old for this shit
- 2,389
- 283
Accessability removed interaction with non-guildmates. In EQ I prefered grouping with the guild over randoms, but when that wasnt an option I turned to random groups. In current gen MMOs, I turn to solo progression. That's just one piece of the puzzle mind you. Another would be that in ye olden days a group formed for ideally hours and some lulls in the action eventually happened and some chat came up. Now a group forms for a 15 minute instance of rushing a boss and disbands.
Rezz
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 4,486
- 3,531
Technology killed socialization within MMOs, because it is much easier and more productive to be sociable outside of them. Otherwise you aren't maximizing your online time. Had Facebook existed during EQ's heyday, groups would have been just as silent as they are today. Except wipes would have been more common because everyone would have been alt-tabbed out.