Investing General Discussion

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
7,405
37,289
Yeah I have been waiting for the upcoming couple of weeks for a while now. Those insta circuitbreaker days with the 9% drops falling off the 1 yr are going to be interesting. Or maybe not. 🤔.

Living those days as they happened was amazing though. I forget how many times we were explaing how circuitbreakers worked. Shit it was the first time I had ever remembered seeing the futures go limit down or limit up.

Historically the market is not weak during the same period a year later can go back and look at this for almost 100yrs
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,791
4,911
Missed my post somewhere in there. I pulled my entire 401k out of S&P 500 index on February 11, 2020 and put it into bonds. I think I missed the top by a week. Followed the rona news obsessively and as soon as I saw the supply chain getting shut down (China ports closing left and right), I knew market troubles were incoming.

I didn’t buy into the recovery and very soon after felt it was too much too quickly and my money sat on the sidelines. I kept waiting for another rug pull reality check, but massively underestimated JPow’s money printing machine. My best and worst financial decisions, all in the same event.

I had even attached a screenshot of my exchange out date.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Thoughts & Prayers
Reactions: 2 users

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,791
4,911
There it is.

A33174B1-E833-4DBF-8F9E-78CD701207D5.jpeg
 

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
7,405
37,289
Capture.JPG


So here is the 3/09 (the low) and 3/10 monthly candles where all the psychological dynamics would exist of massive 1yr returns, thoughts of the previous year etc. Investors in this case responded with another strong month.



Capture1.JPG


Off the 2002 low one year later we do see some weakness but it's rather muted

Now having said that at some point this year we are going to enter a giveback stage. Maybe it is March again all the past tells us is the behavior of traders in similar circumstances and how that speaks to probabilities. We have strong recency bias, everyone waiting for something big. Saw in the crypto thread I think it was, a poster selling out of stock because of the fear of a coming crash. I feel like a broken record but people really need to look at the weight of the evidence, strength is not a reason to sell.

Pullbacks are scary but they are completely normal and healthy for a long term trend. The market isn't going to go up every day, nor ever week, or month. That does not mean the primary trend has been violated. Take it in stride, if the character of the market changes and you want to get out then act if that suits your goals, but doing so just because you are fearful is almost always going to be a mistake.

My read on it based on the evidence in hand is that the rally could extend to 4200 or so on the SPX before a more sizeable correction (~10-19%). So if that assumption is correct that will have us revisiting this 3500-3800 level again some time later this year. When/if it happens it may feel like the sky is falling some individual stocks will be down substantially more. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. How the underpinnings of the market behave will give us clues how to respond.

We don't yet know where yields are going to level out, we don't know how growth stocks will respond to higher rates (Contracting pe?) We don't know how the Fed will respond to increasing inflation (they have told they will ignore it, repeatedly)

As the 10yr yield rises enough to challenge the earnings yield of the S&P that is when things are more likely to get interesting as money flows will become muddied. Institutional money is way overweight bonds, for all retails fear of stocks gains ignores just how much money came out of stocks since 2018 and into bonds. That tide flowing back has just started, stocks are overextended, bonds where in the most massive bubble the debt markets had ever seen. The charts show that the 30yr bull market in bonds may have finally ended and a protracted bear market may have begun.

All we can do is take it a day at a time, stay open minded and clear headed, leaving our bias at the door.
 
  • 1Galaxy Brain
Reactions: 1 user

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
7,405
37,289
In the 1st four years this thread had 60 pages or so of posts. And then came 'Rona. In a year we added almost 700 pages. This week upcoming will mark the 1-year anniversary of the beginnings of the Great Rona Plunge. I went back and pulled out some quotes from the day or two leading up to the beginnings and then day 1. Enjoy...

ps. Blazin Blazin wins the "be careful what you wish for" award with this gem "Looking forward to this week, come on scary headlines! "

Don't make me pull out Sanrith quotes from talking about schiller PE 1000 S&P points ago. :)

I did recently go back and read through that period, some silliness and some sound advice during that period some heeded, some ignored. How could you skip the gem from Titan ? We will never see Dow 29,000 again in our lifetimes! We didn't realize he meant we would gap over it to the upside.

Quite a few like Jysin sold early nothing wrong with that but when you have long term money and the market shaves off 40% you fucking jump in whether you have a clear picture or not. No matter what happens you gained 40% alpha on the market only way to mess that up is to not act. But man do I ever get it that can be hard to do in the moment, and when I feel that knot is often how I know it's the right choice, because it's so freaking hard.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions: 3 users

Hateyou

Not Great, Not Terrible
<Bronze Donator>
17,736
47,862
In the 1st four years this thread had 60 pages or so of posts. And then came 'Rona. In a year we added almost 700 pages. This week upcoming will mark the 1-year anniversary of the beginnings of the Great Rona Plunge. I went back and pulled out some quotes from the day or two leading up to the beginnings and then day 1. Enjoy...

ps. Blazin Blazin wins the "be careful what you wish for" award with this gem "Looking forward to this week, come on scary headlines! "
This is the true gem.


Stocks will fall to 13500-14500 then recover to around 16k in 2021. You will never see 27500 again in your lifetimes.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Big Phoenix

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Gold Donor>
47,555
102,461
View attachment 336455

So here is the 3/09 (the low) and 3/10 monthly candles where all the psychological dynamics would exist of massive 1yr returns, thoughts of the previous year etc. Investors in this case responded with another strong month.



View attachment 336458

Off the 2002 low one year later we do see some weakness but it's rather muted

Now having said that at some point this year we are going to enter a giveback stage. Maybe it is March again all the past tells us is the behavior of traders in similar circumstances and how that speaks to probabilities. We have strong recency bias, everyone waiting for something big. Saw in the crypto thread I think it was, a poster selling out of stock because of the fear of a coming crash. I feel like a broken record but people really need to look at the weight of the evidence, strength is not a reason to sell.

Pullbacks are scary but they are completely normal and healthy for a long term trend. The market isn't going to go up every day, nor ever week, or month. That does not mean the primary trend has been violated. Take it in stride, if the character of the market changes and you want to get out then act if that suits your goals, but doing so just because you are fearful is almost always going to be a mistake.

My read on it based on the evidence in hand is that the rally could extend to 4200 or so on the SPX before a more sizeable correction (~10-19%). So if that assumption is correct that will have us revisiting this 3500-3800 level again some time later this year. When/if it happens it may feel like the sky is falling some individual stocks will be down substantially more. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. How the underpinnings of the market behave will give us clues how to respond.

We don't yet know where yields are going to level out, we don't know how growth stocks will respond to higher rates (Contracting pe?) We don't know how the Fed will respond to increasing inflation (they have told they will ignore it, repeatedly)

As the 10yr yield rises enough to challenge the earnings yield of the S&P that is when things are more likely to get interesting as money flows will become muddied. Institutional money is way overweight bonds, for all retails fear of stocks gains ignores just how much money came out of stocks since 2018 and into bonds. That tide flowing back has just started, stocks are overextended, bonds where in the most massive bubble the debt markets had ever seen. The charts show that the 30yr bull market in bonds may have finally ended and a protracted bear market may have begun.

All we can do is take it a day at a time, stay open minded and clear headed, leaving our bias at the door.
 
  • 1Worf
Reactions: 1 user

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,791
4,911
...

Quite a few like Jysin sold early nothing wrong with that but when you have long term money and the market shaves off 40% you fucking jump in whether you have a clear picture or not. No matter what happens you gained 40% alpha on the market only way to mess that up is to not act. But man do I ever get it that can be hard to do in the moment, and when I feel that knot is often how I know it's the right choice, because it's so freaking hard.
Absolutely under normal circumstance of panic selling. Tech bubble crash.. predictable. Housing crash? Most didn't have a clue what was going on with shady banking loans, but the world will go on once it was shaken out. My fear of jumping in last year was .. it was a global pandemic. There were so many unknowns, and while the money printing machine was impressive, the death counts and infections simply were skyrocketing globally. As far as timing goes, that summer reprieve we had in infections probably contributed to the continued market enthusiasm. Had the timelines been slightly different and we had this autumn / winter massive ramp up in cases, hospitalization, and deaths, there likely would have been a touch more reluctance without any vaccine on the horizon.

Perhaps it is just me justifying not getting back in, but there was a hell of a lot of downside risk due to pandemic unknowns and that was my underlying concern.
 

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
7,405
37,289
Absolutely under normal circumstance of panic selling. Tech bubble crash.. predictable. Housing crash? Most didn't have a clue what was going on with shady banking loans, but the world will go on once it was shaken out. My fear of jumping in last year was .. it was a global pandemic. There were so many unknowns, and while the money printing machine was impressive, the death counts and infections simply were skyrocketing globally. As far as timing goes, that summer reprieve we had in infections probably contributed to the continued market enthusiasm. Had the timelines been slightly different and we had this autumn / winter massive ramp up in cases, hospitalization, and deaths, there likely would have been a touch more reluctance without any vaccine on the horizon.

Perhaps it is just me justifying not getting back in, but there was a hell of a lot of downside risk due to pandemic unknowns and that was my underlying concern.

That's what I'm saying, there was HUGE concern, it seemed insane to jump in. Which is why you should. When it feels like its the worst possible thing is that exact moment to tell your brain not today and do the opposite. I bought not because I wasn't fearful, I bought because I was fearful. You weren't wrong in your assessment of the potential outlook in the moment. Humans tend not to stay in that high fear situation long and the stock market is simply an optimism gauge once they calm down they become more positive and are willing to take more risk and asset prices rise.

I went in heavier at the 15-20% down mark than I wish I had because I didn't believe the primary uptrend would be violated. The market overshot to the downside and I went all in on the day of the low. Because I was early with a chunk of money it took several weeks before I was fully in the green, but buying that day on 3/23 may end up being the ultimate bottom fishing play of my career.

Capture.JPG


And as I made money from options premium from a crazy VIX I kept buying
Capture1.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Capture4.JPG


I like this one too
Capture3.JPG


Fun to look back sometimes but win or lose I try to learn from my experiences don't waste time on things you did wrong, just learn from it and make even more money in the future with that knowledge than any amount you feel you may have missed out on. I struggle with this no matter how I end up I still tend to think, "I could have played it better." Some of that is productive but too much is not. Buyer paralysis is very real and for me at least overcoming it has been pivotal to making money.
 
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 1 user

Locnar

<Bronze Donator>
2,848
3,165
I'm waiting for my account to hit its one year anniversary to post the fidelity widget graph thing and explain what I did. Not to brag but to just share experience, hope no one takes it as bragging because I really credit this VERY forum with helping me the most as a brand new active investor.
 

Sanrith Descartes

You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
<Gold Donor>
46,723
131,278
Don't make me pull out Sanrith quotes from talking about schiller PE 1000 S&P points ago. :)

I did recently go back and read through that period, some silliness and some sound advice during that period some heeded, some ignored. How could you skip the gem from Titan ? We will never see Dow 29,000 again in our lifetimes! We didn't realize he meant we would gap over it to the upside.

Quite a few like Jysin sold early nothing wrong with that but when you have long term money and the market shaves off 40% you fucking jump in whether you have a clear picture or not. No matter what happens you gained 40% alpha on the market only way to mess that up is to not act. But man do I ever get it that can be hard to do in the moment, and when I feel that knot is often how I know it's the right choice, because it's so freaking hard.
I was just pulling random quotes. The thread counts those days was really piling up. There was really one day in March that my resolve got tested. I remember finally getting that feeling of "this shit may not stop dropping". It was a crappy day.
 

Keystone

Lord Nagafen Raider
470
256
Same have to credit this thread for helping me focus some direction during the initial COVID plunge and have seen some insane returns as a result. (Dis, F, Msft, a few others).
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,284
17,946
Historically the market is not weak during the same period a year later can go back and look at this for almost 100yrs

Do you think last year’s lockdowns, crash, and coinciding money printing are comparable to any other years?
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,284
17,946
Perhaps it is just me justifying not getting back in

Considering others here made a ton of money, and you were wrong, I think this is the only part of your post worth listening to.

It kind of offends me listening to you defend your actions.

Vince Dooley, legendary UGA coach, was once asked a question regarding a play that didn’t work, “Coach, if you had to do it again would you call the same play?”

He responded, “Heck no I wouldn’t call the same play! It didn’t work!”

Pretty simple.
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,791
4,911
It’s not all doom and gloom. I got frustrated and by autumn took it all in my own hands and started actively investing and day trading. My returns still beat the S&P in 2020 and this year I am up 10% in the retirement account and well over 20% in my cash acct, despite being (what I consider) conservative in my investing.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,284
17,946
Absolutely

Well shit.

I was taking to my wife’s uncle yesterday who thinks there’s going to be a big contraction (30%-40%) in the market in March and my exact question was, “Well, considering last year a lockdown and 40% increase in fiat created a perfect storm, what makes you think we will strike gold twice?”

He basically suggested that bc the fed printed so much money, stocks are overvalued, and that there aren’t any new jobs (like 90,000 small businesses died) we will see a correction in March.

He probably has $30k in silver, $100k in crypto, and another $50k to play with options.

For me, I just don’t get it. So my plan is currently this:
1. Look at buying 80 oz of silver, as a small store of value and potential growth.
2. Watch BTC for the expected bear that should start in March based on the exact same pattern in 2017, and 2019. Then reinvest $8,000 as another store of value and potential growth.
3. Watch the stonks. Read more about writing options. Be prepared to sell what I got and buy back in at the bottom.

Or nothing happens and I’ll have silver, I’ll get back into BTC at probably $60k, and I’ll keep getting acquainted with constantly losing money on stonks until I don’t.
 

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
7,405
37,289
Well shit.

I was taking to my wife’s uncle yesterday who thinks there’s going to be a big contraction (30%-40%) in the market in March and my exact question was, “Well, considering last year a lockdown and 40% increase in fiat created a perfect storm, what makes you think we will strike gold twice?”

He basically suggested that bc the fed printed so much money, stocks are overvalued, and that there aren’t any new jobs (like 90,000 small businesses died) we will see a correction in March.

He probably has $30k in silver, $100k in crypto, and another $50k to play with options.

For me, I just don’t get it. So my plan is currently this:
1. Look at buying 80 oz of silver, as a small store of value and potential growth.
2. Watch BTC for the expected bear that should start in March based on the exact same pattern in 2017, and 2019. Then reinvest $8,000 as another store of value and potential growth.
3. Watch the stonks. Read more about writing options. Be prepared to sell what I got and buy back in at the bottom.

Or nothing happens and I’ll have silver, I’ll get back into BTC at probably $60k, and I’ll keep getting acquainted with constantly losing money on stonks until I don’t.

Sounds like we are worlds apart both in strategy and view. Far enough I don't think my view on markets can be of much use to you, but I hope it works out for you.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
41,683
142,876
I don't think we get another huge drop. We probably get a normal correction in the 10% range. People still freak out plenty with those. But for the most part won't remember them a year later.

Does anyone care about Dec '18 or Sep '17 (shit, or was it 16? I can't even remember) anymore?
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,284
17,946
Sounds like we are worlds apart both in strategy and view. Far enough I don't think my view on markets can be of much use to you, but I hope it works out for you.

I shared my strategy to see how far off I am.

My perspective isn’t that I know what I’m talking about. My intent of sharing is so that my perspective can be corrected by everyone here who knows better.