Investing General Discussion

Tmac

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This shit is stupid; a 2% federal wealth tax on portfolios and real estate holdings above 10mil would be much better overall. Stop penalizing people for making money, start penalizing people for accumulating too much property.

I believe what you mean to say is, "People (me) should be able to excercise more personal freedom with my money".

Your current statement is subjective hypocrisy: let me do what I want, but arbitrarily limit others through force. You say $10m, others say $1m, others say $100k, but bc of reasons you think $10m is the reasonable line.

I've got some poor progressives to sell you that want anyone above $100k taxed.
 
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Furry

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I believe what you mean to say is, "People (me) should be able to excercise more personal freedom with my money".

Your current statement is unenforceable hypocrisy: let me do what I want, but arbitrarily limit others through force. You say $10m, others say $1m, other say $100k, but bc you're above the $100k and maybe could one day reach $10m you think that's the reasonable line.

I've got some poor progressives to sell you that want anyone above $100k taxed.
To be fair, I don't think targetting people with 10m+ assets is "everyone else".

But since the only thing the government knows is MORE, whatever the government is for, I'm against it.
 

Mist

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I'm not sure you really get the point of capitalism.....
I do, actually.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between capitalism and feudalism, or the purpose of democratic government from preventing the former from reverting to the latter.

For instance, in this very thread, people are complaining about skyrocketing housing prices, and the middle-class being priced out of home-buying. The main driver of this is because a very small group of real-estate firms (some of which are foreign companies) that are flush with capital are buying up all the houses, to rent back to the general population.

Without some kind of wealth tax, what would reverse this trend? And what is the middle-class's argument against a wealth tax? Middle-class home-owners already pay a very significant wealth tax, property tax on their home, an asset which generally makes up the bulk of their wealth. Why should rich people be exempt from paying property taxes on the assets that make the bulk of their wealth?
 

Haus

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I do, actually.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between capitalism and feudalism, or the purpose of democratic government from preventing the former from reverting to the latter.

For instance, in this very thread, people are complaining about skyrocketing housing prices, and the middle-class being priced out of home-buying. The main driver of this is because a very small group of real-estate firms (some of which are foreign companies) that are flush with capital are buying up all the houses, to rent back to the general population.

Without some kind of wealth tax, what would reverse this trend? And what is the middle-class's argument against a wealth tax? Middle-class home-owners already pay a very significant wealth tax, property tax on their home, an asset which generally makes up the bulk of their wealth. Why should rich people be exempt from paying property taxes on the assets that make the bulk of their wealth?

It wouldn't be a wealth tax to accomplish this. It would be to put reasonable anti-monopolistic laws into place to stop the mega-corp banks/financial institutes from wholesale buying the housing market. Or the easier answer, which is to stop having 0% interest rates from the Federal Reserve which enables all this bubble inflating (i.e. they can go to the window at essentially 0% to borrow which gives them unlimited money which the general public don't have access to). If you want to tamper down corporate activity via taxation it's not a WEALTH tax you want, it's a CORPORATE ASSET tax.

Additional ways to curb this behavior. Remove all home ownership taxes on individuals for their own property (i.e. homesteading), compensate for this by increasing the property tax on small scale landlords by a small amount (like 1.5x), and then jack it up on any entity owning over a certain amount of residential rental properties (make it something like 5x). This accurately taxes the companies you want to tamp down... As well as encourage home ownership as it would make renting even less advantageous from a cost perspective.
 
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Mist

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But since the only thing the government knows is MORE, whatever the government is for, I'm against it.
This is the #1 problem with the modern conservative line of thought. Starving the democratic government ensures the path to corporate feudalism will continue. It's like you guys almost figured it out under Trump with the backlash to both corporate wokeness and corporate censorship, but can't quite make the leap that actual Adam Smith free market capitalism can only exist under the umbrella of a democratic government powerful enough to prevent it from reverting to feudalism.
 

Gravel

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I swear I read that the institutional investors weren't actually buying more real estate than previously and whatever article it was that brought it up first was basically fear-mongering.

No idea where to find it again though.
 

Tmac

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I do, actually.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between capitalism and feudalism, or the purpose of democratic government from preventing the former from reverting to the latter.

For instance, in this very thread, people are complaining about skyrocketing housing prices, and the middle-class being priced out of home-buying. The main driver of this is because a very small group of real-estate firms (some of which are foreign companies) that are flush with capital are buying up all the houses, to rent back to the general population.

Without some kind of wealth tax, what would reverse this trend? And what is the middle-class's argument against a wealth tax? Middle-class home-owners already pay a very significant wealth tax, property tax on their home, an asset which generally makes up the bulk of their wealth. Why should rich people be exempt from paying property taxes on the assets that make the bulk of their wealth?

My personal philosophy is that the barrier to entry should be as low as possible. So, in one sense I agree that the burden on the middle class should be reduced by promoting home-building through deregulation at the local and national level, reducing the cost of living through deregulation at the local and national level, and reducing the tax burden on the middle class.

In the last 20 years our gov has done a piss-poor job of anti-trust enforcement at multiple levels that are currently impacting the housing market. One single example is the fact that timber prices are flat while lumber prices all time highs. Why? Because they can and there's nobody asking questions about pricing. Why? Because Canada owns all our lumber mills. Why? Because America isn't enforcing anti-trust laws. It's a big circle-jerk.

Enforcing the laws we already have on the books would solve a lot of the housing problems. Along with a lot of our burning-down-cities and civility problems.
 

Tmac

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This is the #1 problem with the modern conservative line of thought. Starving the democratic government ensures the path to corporate feudalism will continue. It's like you guys almost figured it out under Trump with the backlash to both corporate wokeness and corporate censorship, but can't quite make the leap that actual Adam Smith free market capitalism can only exist under the umbrella of a democratic government powerful enough to prevent it from reverting to feudalism.

You realize progressive politicians ENABLE corporate feudalism right? And that the bigger and more centralized the government the MORE they can enable this kind of behavior right?
 
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TomServo

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I swear I read that the institutional investors weren't actually buying more real estate than previously and whatever article it was that brought it up first was basically fear-mongering.

No idea where to find it again though.
Anecdotally easy to verify. Florida you can look up the property owners very quickly. At least in the winter garden area a fucking lot of houses are owned by the developers and being rented out or by institutions.
 

Big Phoenix

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For instance, in this very thread, people are complaining about skyrocketing housing prices, and the middle-class being priced out of home-buying. The main driver of this is because a very small group of real-estate firms (some of which are foreign companies) that are flush with capital are buying up all the houses, to rent back to the general population.
You think blackrock would be buying up house after house if interest rates where 5% or more and massive inflation was occurring? Of course not.
 

Mist

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It wouldn't be a wealth tax to accomplish this. It would be to put reasonable anti-monopolistic laws into place to stop the mega-corp banks/financial institutes from wholesale buying the housing market. Or the easier answer, which is to stop having 0% interest rates from the Federal Reserve which enables all this bubble inflating (i.e. they can go to the window at essentially 0% to borrow which gives them unlimited money which the general public don't have access to). If you want to tamper down corporate activity via taxation it's not a WEALTH tax you want, it's a CORPORATE ASSET tax.

Additional ways to curb this behavior. Remove all home ownership taxes on individuals for their own property (i.e. homesteading), compensate for this by increasing the property tax on small scale landlords by a small amount (like 1.5x), and then jack it up on any entity owning over a certain amount of residential rental properties (make it something like 5x). This accurately taxes the companies you want to tamp down... As well as encourage home ownership as it would make renting even less advantageous from a cost perspective.
Anti-trust is very hard, and extremely hard post-Bork. You have to prove that the consumer is being harmed, and ultimately once you do prove that, you have to seize entire companies to break them up. That requires an extreme exercise of government power. Meanwhile, governments have always had the ability to tax, it's not new. Progressive taxation is what's supposed to stop wealth accumulation, and therefore the accumulation of political power, but what's actually happened is that we've reverted to a regressive taxation scheme, where the professional class/upper-middle class and mid-size companies pay the bulk of the taxes, while ultra rich individuals and rich corporations pay effectively nothing in taxes.

The less taxes the ultra rich pay, the more YOU have to pay to make up the difference. Why anyone in the 125k-300k income range would be against taxing the uber rich is beyond me.

You realize progressive politicians ENABLE corporate feudalism right? And that the bigger and more centralized the government the MORE they can enable this kind of behavior right?
Elected politicians in both parties align themselves with corporations for political purposes (and the few that don't are labeled socialists, go figure.) It's the same reason Mitch McConnell said "corporations should stay out of politics, but keep donating money to politicians."

Ultimately, it's not about the elected officials, they are all effectively whores for as long as they have to continue collecting money to get re-elected. It's about the courts. Republican-appointed judges are more likely to decide in favor of more corporate power, while Democratic-appointed judgements are more likely to decide in favor of workers or consumers. That's what this is about. The reason our anti-trust enforcement has been lax for 40 years is all because of Robert Bork, a Republican judge who Ronald Reagan tried to put on the supreme court.


Further, Republican-appointed judges are more likely to rule in favor of unlimited corporate political spending, while Democratic-appointed judges are more likely to rule to limit corporate political donations.

So yeah, both parties are taking us on the road to corporate feudalism, but one of them is at least hitting the brakes occasionally while the other is stepping on the gas the whole time.
 

Mist

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You think blackrock would be buying up house after house if interest rates where 5% or more? Of course not.
They absolutely would, because if interest rates were 5% or more, getting a mortgage would be much harder and more expensive for your average home-buyer, making those houses even more worth the investment. Blackrock is always going to be able to get better loan terms than your average home-buyer.

The government would have to both raise interest rates and create subsidies for first-time home buyers, or some other intervention into the mortgage market, and well the government doesn't have a good recent track record of being involved in the mortgage market.
 

Sanrith Descartes

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Dafuk got into COIN today? Not that I am complaining mind you. It isnt that UFC deal with Bitcoin is it?
 

Big Phoenix

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They absolutely would, because if interest rates were 5% or more, getting a mortgage would be much harder and more expensive for your average home-buyer, making those houses even more worth the investment. Blackrock is always going to be able to get better loan terms than your average home-buyer.

The government would have to both raise interest rates and create subsidies for first-time home buyers, or some other intervention into the mortgage market, and well the government doesn't have a good recent track record of being involved in the mortgage market.
Then why didnt that occur in 2006? Because there wasnt inflation.

Blackrock and the like are buying up property now due to the massive inflation we are seeing. Its super cheap to finance a house and it will hold its value incredibly well as the inflation hits from super cheap money and unlimited money printing.

The government is the reason why Blackrock is doing what it is doing. The solution isnt for more government manipulation of the market.
 
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Falstaff

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The less taxes the ultra rich pay, the more YOU have to pay to make up the difference. Why anyone in the 125k-300k income range would be against taxing the uber rich is beyond me.
because some day I'm going to be as rich as Jeff Bezos god damnit!

or else if I don't speak up for my ultra rich brethren then eventually they'll tax me... or something equally retarded.
 
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Il_Duce Lightning Lord Rule

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Mist, this is strike 2 on political derails in this thread. One more strike and you're out.

Everyone else: take this shit to politics, not investing.
 
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Mist

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Mist, this is strike 2 on political derails in this thread. One more strike and you're out.

Everyone else: take this shit to politics, not investing.
It's investing-relevant because these very same topics are discussed on investing podcasts. It's very hard to talk about the current investment market without talking about anti-trust and inflation at the very least.
 
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Pogi.G

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Watching $AAL closely. They are having staffing issues (as many places are), but people are wanting to fly. AAL canceled hundreds of flights and delayed thousands in June which has brought the price down from it's near YTD high at $26.04. Today's closing price was $20.31 and oversold on the daily, and I see $20 as support. I am going to buy in this range for a long swing as I see things continuing to improve over the next several months. Will set a stop loss at the 200 just in case.
 
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Il_Duce Lightning Lord Rule

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It's investing-relevant because these very same topics are discussed on investing podcasts. It's very hard to talk about the current investment market without talking about anti-trust and inflation at the very least.
You are talking about political tax policy of 'what ought to be', that is solidly in the realm of politics.
This shit is stupid; a 2% federal wealth tax on portfolios and real estate holdings above 10mil would be much better overall. Stop penalizing people for making money, start penalizing people for accumulating too much property.
I do, actually.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between capitalism and feudalism, or the purpose of democratic government from preventing the former from reverting to the latter.

For instance, in this very thread, people are complaining about skyrocketing housing prices, and the middle-class being priced out of home-buying. The main driver of this is because a very small group of real-estate firms (some of which are foreign companies) that are flush with capital are buying up all the houses, to rent back to the general population.

Without some kind of wealth tax, what would reverse this trend? And what is the middle-class's argument against a wealth tax? Middle-class home-owners already pay a very significant wealth tax, property tax on their home, an asset which generally makes up the bulk of their wealth. Why should rich people be exempt from paying property taxes on the assets that make the bulk of their wealth?
Anti-trust is very hard, and extremely hard post-Bork. You have to prove that the consumer is being harmed, and ultimately once you do prove that, you have to seize entire companies to break them up. That requires an extreme exercise of government power. Meanwhile, governments have always had the ability to tax, it's not new. Progressive taxation is what's supposed to stop wealth accumulation, and therefore the accumulation of political power, but what's actually happened is that we've reverted to a regressive taxation scheme, where the professional class/upper-middle class and mid-size companies pay the bulk of the taxes, while ultra rich individuals and rich corporations pay effectively nothing in taxes.

The less taxes the ultra rich pay, the more YOU have to pay to make up the difference. Why anyone in the 125k-300k income range would be against taxing the uber rich is beyond me.


Elected politicians in both parties align themselves with corporations for political purposes (and the few that don't are labeled socialists, go figure.) It's the same reason Mitch McConnell said "corporations should stay out of politics, but keep donating money to politicians."

Ultimately, it's not about the elected officials, they are all effectively whores for as long as they have to continue collecting money to get re-elected. It's about the courts. Republican-appointed judges are more likely to decide in favor of more corporate power, while Democratic-appointed judgements are more likely to decide in favor of workers or consumers. That's what this is about. The reason our anti-trust enforcement has been lax for 40 years is all because of Robert Bork, a Republican judge who Ronald Reagan tried to put on the supreme court.


Further, Republican-appointed judges are more likely to rule in favor of unlimited corporate political spending, while Democratic-appointed judges are more likely to rule to limit corporate political donations.

So yeah, both parties are taking us on the road to corporate feudalism, but one of them is at least hitting the brakes occasionally while the other is stepping on the gas the whole time.

These 3 posts are pure politics and not relevant to investing in any way shape or form. This is not the forum for this kind of thing, and as you have voluntarily removed yourself from the political forum here you can fuck off to reddit or twitter or wherever else you'll feel more at home if you want to keep it up.
 
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swayze22

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Watching $AAL closely. They are having staffing issues (as many places are), but people are wanting to fly. AAL canceled hundreds of flights and delayed thousands in June which has brought the price down from it's near YTD high at $26.04. Today's closing price was $20.31 and oversold on the daily, and I see $20 as support. I am going to buy in this range for a long swing as I see things continuing to improve over the next several months. Will set a stop loss at the 200 just in case.
dammit i swore off the airlines. don't make me do it...
 
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