Investing

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Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,775
640
If they offer a match into your roth, then your tax burden will rise when you account for the total amount that goes into the roth (including the match). I would really clarify if the matching contributions are split between them, I would not make this assumption, as one of the main attractions of a 401k vs. a roth is the employer match.
The thing is. I can actually put a dollar amount instead of a % into these funds. That's a good question how they go about matching. I just assumed they add to whatever percentage you allocate. I was thinking just putting all 15% into Roth until it's maxed for the year and than move it over to the 401K? I guess I just don't know which route would net me the most money in 30 years maxing out the $5500 for the IRA or leaving the bulk of the money in the 401k?
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,775
640
Keep in mind that if they are matching you with stock you will want to reinvest that stock into other funds offered in your 401k or you will end up with an unbalanced portfolio.
I really don't know this answer but I should. I'm pretty sure it's a dollar for dollar thing tho.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,890
82,469
So the DJI is at its highest point ever. Time to go all in, get out or continue what you're doing?
 

Falstaff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,447
3,393
While doing our taxes, I discovered my wife's previous employer (she worked there for ~6 months before going back to graduate school) dumped her 401k into a Fidelity cash account... so I have $1400 to invest somewhere.

Rerolled account where all my investments are based on the boards advice? What could go wrong?
 

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
7,119
36,614
While doing our taxes, I discovered my wife's previous employer (she worked there for ~6 months before going back to graduate school) dumped her 401k into a Fidelity cash account... so I have $1400 to invest somewhere.

Rerolled account where all my investments are based on the boards advice? What could go wrong?
I heard the tulip market is heating up
 

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
So the DJI is at its highest point ever. Time to go all in, get out or continue what you're doing?
We have started liquidating all of our equity positions. What little is left will be covered or sold by Monday. At this point preservation is more important than gains. I don't see the market pushing much past all time highs with government spending at all levels needing to be cut, taxes needing to rise and the economic recovery already on shaky ground.

If I'm wrong its not a big deal. I've noticed I'm much more risk adverse these days becoming far more worried with preservation than gains.

That said, for most, dollar cost averaging is by far the best play you can make over the long term. Especially if you are young and haven't met your goals yet.
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
So the DJI is at its highest point ever. Time to go all in, get out or continue what you're doing?
Continue what you're doing. The stock market is just as likely to go up next week as it is to go down. What the value was 5 years ago (i.e. whether it's at an all-time high now) doesn't have any bearing on that.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,069
17,136
Made my first investment today, March 8, about a month after I turned 28. Hopefully I can continue this trend and be a good steward with my money for the rest of my life.

My businesses are taking off and I'm really excited about my future prospects. If the good Lord has anything to do with it, I know it will be an awesome ride.

I'm also going to open a savings account with my bank and get an emergency fund started as well. Once it reaches a few thousand dollars, I'll probably move it into an interest bearing account with the same people doing my Roth IRA.

302yvld.jpg
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
Since you've just started, let me recommend you take a look at Vanguard and their index funds and target retirement funds. Their management fees are around 0.1% vs the 0.75 - 1.71% you're paying (depending on which class of shares you have).

There are studies showing that actively managed funds (which you have) underperform index funds in the long run. This is, in part, because they take a significantly larger cut for management fees. Also because it's all but impossible to beat the market consistently and not just over the course of a few years... and they don't just have to beat the market, they have to beat it sufficiently to make up the higher fees.

A good strategy is to decide on your allocation between stocks (domestic and international) and bonds first, then pick index funds accordingly. Or, alternatively, to not worry about that at all and just grab a target retirement fund.


edit: just to be clear, I don't work for Vanguard and I derive no benefits from recommending them. They are, however, the company with the lowest management fees - which is really the only thing that matters with index funds.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,069
17,136
My financial adviser is covering all of my annual fees ($100 max), until I reach $5k and then the account will pay for itself.

I also chose an aggressive plan, which is, from what I've read, smart to do when you're younger because you can take more risks.

My adviser has also been with Merrill Lynch for 28 years (He started there when he was 21, which is unheard of), so I trust his advice. Plus, he's paying all of my fees until $5k anyways. At that point, I can take a second look at where I am and where I want to be.
 

Eomer

Trakanon Raider
5,472
272
Tmac47_sl said:
My financial adviser is covering all of my annual fees ($100 max), until I reach $5k and then the account will pay for itself.
/facepalm

You never see management fees in that way. They come right out of your returns. Your advisor has already lied to you or deceived you through omission.

Jesus christ, that fund has a 5.75% front loaded fee AND a 1% MER. I guess it's swell that your advisor is apparently taking care of the front load, but that 1% MER is still a big deal compared to index funds that are around a tenth of a percent.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/WASAX

If you use the chart in that link, chose a 5 year timeline, and compare it to the S&P 500 you'll see that you're getting absolutely fucked with that investment. Over the past 5 years, that fund has returned about 3% annually. The S&P500 has returned 6%. That's MASSIVE.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
1% Expense ratio is not bad for a managed fund.

I don't believe in that and stick with low ratio indexes whenever I dealing with funds, but to suggest that 1% is an absurd amount is disingenuous.
 

Eomer

Trakanon Raider
5,472
272
1% Expense ratio is not bad for a managed fund.

I don't believe in that and stick with low ratio indexes whenever I dealing with funds, but to suggest that 1% is an absurd amount is disingenuous.
Where did I say the MER was absurd? I said it was a "big deal" compared to low cost index funds, especially when you consider there's a front loaded fee to go with it. However I did say the difference in return over the past 5 years was "MASSIVE" when compared to the S&P 500, because the difference between 3% and 6% annual returns is exactly that.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,069
17,136
If you use the chart in that link, chose a 5 year timeline, and compare it to the S&P 500 you'll see that you're getting absolutely fucked with that investment. Over the past 5 years, that fund has returned about 3% annually. The S&P500 has returned 6%. That's MASSIVE.
Is that relevant if this is a retirement fund I'm going to more or less ignore until maturity? The 10 year returns are 3% higher than the S&P...so...are you saying I should be concerned with short-term growth and play around with what I'm putting my money in?

I don't want to play the market, I just want to consistently put money into an account that experiences positive growth.
 

splorge

Silver Knight of the Realm
235
172
well, past performance is no indicator of future performance. Most of the time, whatever managed fund happens to tell a good investment story that beats the index is the one getting sold that year. The simple truth is that these managed funds rarely beat the index over time, and the increased fees are a part of what makes that so difficult.

Is that relevant if this is a retirement fund I'm going to more or less ignore until maturity? The 10 year returns are 3% higher than the S&P...so...are you saying I should be concerned with short-term growth and play around with what I'm putting my money in?

I don't want to play the market, I just want to consistently put money into an account that experiences positive growth.
 

Gadrel_sl

shitlord
465
3
So the DJI is at its highest point ever. Time to go all in, get out or continue what you're doing?
I cashed out on some of my domestic stocks in order to diversify my holdings. I'm going to sit on the cash for a bit then put it into some ETFs covering markets/sectors I'm not exposed to.
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
My financial adviser is covering all of my annual fees ($100 max), until I reach $5k and then the account will pay for itself.
As Eomer said, your financial adviser has either mislead you, or failed to disclose properly how fees are assessed.

He's almost certainly covering your portfolio fees - that is the fee you pay for having money in your account. This ison topof the management fee for the fund (the 1%) - which are taken directly out of the fund's assets. So you will never see a bill that says "1.7% management fee" - it's just reflected in a lower value per share.

edit: You may want to check if he's also receiving a kick back for selling particular funds to you - on top of the fees he charges you. That'd explain why he's willing to waive fees early on. Your fund comes with a 0.25% 12b-1 fee, which discloses the money spent on marketing and distribution of funds. For example, the glossy document you posted a picture of and incentives to advisers for recommending particular funds.

I also chose an aggressive plan, which is, from what I've read, smart to do when you're younger because you can take more risks.
100% world stock index is very aggressive. If you want even more risk, you can specifically pick an index funds for companies in the developing world: big upside once these countries develop, big downside if civil war breaks out or businesses are nationalized (personally, I wouldn't recommend it - the world stock index will include these funds weighted by their share in the global economy. Overweighting them is really just market timing on when these countries will develop). You're right that you can afford to take more risk. But more risk doesn't automatically mean higher expected returns.

My adviser has also been with Merrill Lynch for 28 years (He started there when he was 21, which is unheard of), so I trust his advice. Plus, he's paying all of my fees until $5k anyways. At that point, I can take a second look at where I am and where I want to be.
I know plenty of people who did internships there at 19 or 20 and started working there after college. I don't think this is particularly rare...

Eomer_sl said:
Jesus christ, that fund has a 5.75% front loaded fee AND a 1% MER.
Just to explain what this means: for every $100 you invest in the fund, they're going to put $94.25 into the fund - the rest they pocket. So for your initial $5k, they'll grab $290 - on top of management and portfolio fees.

If you use the chart in that link, chose a 5 year timeline, and compare it to the S&P 500 you'll see that you're getting absolutely fucked with that investment.
These charts do not include the 5.75% front loaded fee, by the way.

Tmac47_sl said:
I don't want to play the market, I just want to consistently put money into an account that experiences positive growth.
That's why we're recommending index funds. They do exactly what you want: not play around in the market and simply cash in on the overall market growth.

The fact that you're investing long-term is another reason to go with an index fund. In any given year, the best performing fund is an actively managed one. That's trivially true: if you have a hundred monkey's throwing darts to pick stocks, at least one of them is going to beat the average. Whether you beat the market in that year depends on how lucky you were when picking your actively managed fund. However, the best performing funds change every year. Over the long run (say 20-30 years), all but maybe one or two do worse than the market average. The question then is what the odds are that you're going to pick one of those funds out of the thousands that are out there. There's no way to predict which one it is. On top of that, if you start off with a thousand funds, maybe 100 of them will even still be around in 20 years.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
10,069
17,136
As Eomer said, your financial adviser has either mislead you, or failed to disclose properly how fees are assessed...
Thanks for the valuable information Soriak and explaining this stuff to me in layman's terms.

I'm totally unfamiliar with investing, so any mistakes I might make are due to ignorance rather than stupidity. I appreciate your tone.
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
Thanks for the valuable information Soriak and explaining this stuff to me in layman's terms.

I'm totally unfamiliar with investing, so any mistakes I might make are due to ignorance rather than stupidity. I appreciate your tone.
Anytime. You seem to know a lot more about investing than the vast majority of people and the best way to learn more is to just go ahead and do something with your money. That and a willingness to consider feedback and (if necessary) adjust your strategy suggest you'll do just fine.

Keep in mind that making mistakes early on is cheap. You lose a few bucks on fees of some sort and you may feel uncomfortable mixing things around with your adviser (or outright dumping him). But you'll have recovered any of those costs within a couple weeks and 30 years from now, this won't matter in the slightest. What is extremely costly is not making changes once you are convinced that you should do something differently. That adds up over those same 30 years...

You should also never feel stupid for asking questions. It'd be a better world if more investors did. Warren Buffett said he never invested in the structured products that crashed during the 2008 crisis because when he asked for the details, he didn't understand how the product worked. The same product that banks in Switzerland had marketed for 80 year old retirees. People just thought their financial advisers knew better... and the latter, presumably, didn't want to appear ignorant about the latest, greatest thing. I bet those people would rather have looked stupid before buying it than losing all their savings.

The joy of those structured products, by the way, was that they became entirely worthless after Lehman's bankruptcy. All the underlying assets went to creditors and the investors didn't get anything back - so there wasn't even a way for people to wait for the market to recover. And that's what happens when you don't understand how a product works...