Investing

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Eomer

Trakanon Raider
5,472
272
Thanks for the valuable information Soriak and explaining this stuff to me in layman's terms.

I'm totally unfamiliar with investing, so any mistakes I might make are due to ignorance rather than stupidity. I appreciate your tone.
Sorry if I came across cranky!

If you have a spare evening, you should read this short and simple book:http://www.amazon.com/Little-Book-Co.../dp/0470102101

It will cover the basics and theory behind why actively managed funds over the long term are generally not a good investment. It won't tell you exactly how to invest your money specifically, but it will at least show you why the fees charged in mutual funds and other investment vehicles are rarely if ever going to be worth it in the long run.

Tmac47_sl said:
Is that relevant if this is a retirement fund I'm going to more or less ignore until maturity? The 10 year returns are 3% higher than the S&P...so...are you saying I should be concerned with short-term growth and play around with what I'm putting my money in?
Not at all. The link I found only had up to 5 years, so that's what I went by. It could well be higher or lower depending on the time frame. I think it had a mix of bonds in there with equities, so in certain circumstances it might well outperform the market. But as you said this is for retirement, and over longer time periods it's unlikely to outperform the market. Almost no mutual funds do. And the chances of you picking the handful that do are very, very small.
 
What is the best way to go about investing in a Roth IRA? I had started one last year and a couple of the financial blogs I read supported Vanguard's VTSAX (total stock market, super low expense ratio). I recently stumbled upon this article and then started to do some more research:https://personal.vanguard.com/us/ins...t-funds-012013

I know earlier in the thread people suggested the targeted retirement funds, but given that I'll be holding this for 35+ years, are there more aggressive options?

For example, I had never heard of a REIT before, but it appears they pay huge dividends instead of capital gains. Would this be the optimal way to go in the Roth, given that the dividends would grow tax free? Some of the other enticing funds catching my eye include small-cap and emerging markets.

Edit: Also, could someone explain ETFs to the novice investor?
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
ETFs work like mutual funds, except that shares in the funds are traded on the market. So instead of buying/selling happening once at the end of the trading day, it happens continuously as the market is open.

ETFs can have lower fees. With Vanguard, for example, they have the fees of Admiral shares, which you'd get with more than $10k invested in the fund (per fund, not combined). The downside is that you pay a transaction fee. With Scottrade, for example, it's $7 per trade. If you invest $100 every other week, an ETF is a really bad idea. If you invest $1k+ at a time, the cost is fairly negligible.

REITs are investments in real estate. I suppose they can be an addition to bonds and stocks and, if so, would belong in a Roth IRA. However, I don't invest in them myself, so I'll leave that to someone else. I don't like investing in real estate, because it's one of those things where no value is created. It's all about supposed shortages... but just look at Detroit: demand for housing in a particular area can change very quickly. As can preferences for types of housing: what if people 10 years from now want to live in large apartment buildings instead of houses? It may not sound realistic, but look at some of the recent luxury rental buildings that went up in Manhattan. Demand for those units is ridiculous, with people paying $3,500 a month for 250 square feet.
 

Eomer

Trakanon Raider
5,472
272
REITs are investments in real estate. I suppose they can be an addition to bonds and stocks and, if so, would belong in a Roth IRA. However, I don't invest in them myself, so I'll leave that to someone else. I don't like investing in real estate, because it's one of those things where no value is created. It's all about supposed shortages... but just look at Detroit: demand for housing in a particular area can change very quickly. As can preferences for types of housing: what if people 10 years from now want to live in large apartment buildings instead of houses? It may not sound realistic, but look at some of the recent luxury rental buildings that went up in Manhattan. Demand for those units is ridiculous, with people paying $3,500 a month for 250 square feet.
REITs can have rental housing in their portfolios. It's not just commercial stuff, as far as I understand it. And if you buy a REIT ETF with a bunch of different companies, I would imagine it's pretty well diversified across different cities and types of real estate. Regardless though, wouldn't REIT's be included with any S&P500 fund anyways? And really, aren't many/most large financial institutions or at least insurance companies heavily invested in real estate as well?
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
REITs can have rental housing in their portfolios. It's not just commercial stuff, as far as I understand it.
I always thought of it as mostly commercial... but as I said, I don't know too much about them.

And really, aren't many/most large financial institutions or at least insurance companies heavily invested in real estate as well?
That's certainly true - and the economy overall seems rather closely connected to real estate anyway. I suppose REIDs would be doubling-down on that, if invested in on top of a broad index.
 

Izuldan_sl

shitlord
154
0
I don't like investing in real estate, because it's one of those things where no value is created.
Can you expand/clarify on this a bit? I think what you are trying to say is you don't like investing in REIT's, not real estate in general, but I don't want to put words in your mouth if I'm misinterpreting this.

Personally I've been increasing my real estate holdings the past 3 or 4 years, buying up both residential and commercial for rental income. I feel it's been a better investment, for me at least, than the market, even with the market hitting all-time highs. The whole adage of "buy low, sell high" seems more appropriate with real estate since the housing market has been low for a long time, and only now is starting to heat up. In fact, it's getting very difficult to find good properties since the beginning of this year as inventory is low and a lot of people are coming in all cash.
 

Soriak_sl

shitlord
783
0
Can you expand/clarify on this a bit? I think what you are trying to say is you don't like investing in REIT's, not real estate in general, but I don't want to put words in your mouth if I'm misinterpreting this.
I'm averse to real estate fairly broadly... I'm making money off a company because they're providing a product or service that people are buying. Real estate is a building, and the value is going to go up/down based on how much demand there is to be in a particular area. It feels somewhat more speculative to me, but I can admit that this may be irrational (or not fully informed).

Personally I've been increasing my real estate holdings the past 3 or 4 years, buying up both residential and commercial for rental income.
Are you buying actual buildings or stakes in them? I'm wondering because the former sounds like a lot of work to administer. I suppose you could get a management company to do much of the work for you, but there's still some risk with finding renters or kicking out the ones that won't pay up. And you'd presumably be diversified across the country, which may not make this easier? Are you highly leveraged, or are these all-cash purchases, if you don't mind my asking - it seems to require a significant investment per building, or significant risk exposure if it's mostly financed through debt. (I'm genuinely curious, by the way - I don't know the answer to these questions.)
 

Izuldan_sl

shitlord
154
0
I am actually buying the buildings, it is me only, not part of any investment group. My first "rental" home was forced upon me, because it was my house I bought in 2005 that now I am upside down on. So I was forced with the decision of either short-selling/foreclosing on it, and ruining my credit, or renting it, and I chose the latter route. The amount I rent it for *almost* makes up for the mortgage + taxes, but I'm still losing a few thousand a year on the house.

I have three other homes I have bought for rental purposes. The first two I put 50% down, and have 15-year mortgages out on. The last one I purchased all cash. Each of the homes nets me somewhere between $1 - $1.5k per month, depending on the amount of repairs needed after the tenants move out. For those 3 homes, all three were distressed properties, but I was very picky when I purchased, and none of them needed any serious repairs.

I initially managed my first two properties by myself, but with the additional two homes I have contracted with a management company that takes 6% off the top. This definitely cuts into profits, and if I was retired or had more time, I would not utilize them, but my businesses take a lot out of me, so I went this route. They do provide insurance coverage so if someone is a dead beat and doesn't pay, they go after them, not me, and they also will pay the full rent in lieu of the tenant. That has not been an issue yet, thankfully, but you are right, that is always the risk. All of the homes are in my city, mainly because I know the market here very well. I have been tempted many times in buying homes in Las Vegas, for example, since homes there are dirt cheap, but I do not know that area very well and I am afraid of maybe buying in the wrong zip code and also the difficulty dealing with tenants in another state, although I do realize that a management company could help mitigate that.

Finally I have a commercial building, my office is in it, I occupy maybe 25% of the building, and I rent out the other 75%. The building is currently 100% occupied. This is the most shaky investment, and honestly I don't know if I would do it again, but somehow I got talked into building a bigger building than I originally had planned =) So far things are going very well, I am making a good return on my building, but the problem with commercial that I see is that today's hot, trendy spot could turn into tomorrow's bad neighborhood graveyard. So while my building is currently in the best part of town, who knows maybe 10 years from now the business center of the city could move away and I will be in a less desirable area. The other issue is I only put 30% down on the property with a 30-year mortgage....which is longer than my planned retirement (I plan to retire in about 20 years). So hopefully the property will still be desirable at that time. The way the mortgage and rent works out, if the building is even 40-50% occupied I will still be breaking even/making money.

Real estate definitely requires a larger initial capital investment, at least the way I am doing it. Of course I don't need to put as much money down, however I feel that exposes me to more risk down the line if I have a bunch of long term mortgages I cannot pay down. Since I do not plan on selling these homes any time soon, I am letting the rental income pay down the mortgage, while (hopefully) building equity at the same time. While the market can certainly nose-dive, homes in my area are at historic lows, and I just don't see them going down much more, if they do. Recently the housing market seems to be trending upward, which is a good sign for the properties I already have, but bad for further expansion. Currently homes in my neighborhood are selling days after being listed, and I haven't been able to do my due diligence on them before they get snatched up. So it's not looking good this year for me to buy another property unless I'm willing to buy it sight-unseen or some bullshit like that.

Finally, as always, diversity is the key, I know you expound this and I'm preaching to the choir, but for other readers out there, it's just something I've been more emphasis in than the market. I would say in the past 4 years my investments have been 50% real estate, 25% stock market, 25% gold/silver. The prior 4 years it was like 70% stock market, 20% real estate, 10% gold/silver.

My plan long-term is to own around 10-20 properties and live off that income when I retire.
 

splorge

Silver Knight of the Realm
235
172
Real estate is one investment where I feel you have more control than other asset classes. With stocks, I have no clue whats really going inside the company. I feel real estate is more hands on and I can cover more variables. Of course there are always things you can't control, but I just feel its less of a total gamble.

There is no point in diversifying real estate portfolio across the country. First, its impossible to manage it without a company, which rapes the profit. Secondly, it only partially protects you from regional downturns, while leaving you at risk to market downturns all the same. Last, its also very difficult to keep tabs on all the properties condition - you just want to be close by. In my opinion its better to focus on a particular area and learn that area well.
 

OU Ariakas

Diet Dr. Pepper Enjoyer
<Silver Donator>
7,440
21,080
limojohn258_sl said:
I think its a bad deal.
Cool story, bro. Did you forget the rest of the post where you tell us exactly why your thoughts matter?
 

Falstaff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,446
3,393
Before I call Vanguard or do my own research, does anyone know if I can roll a 403b from a previous employer directly into a 529?

and a better question is: is a 529 the best way to save for college?
 
6,216
8
Before I call Vanguard or do my own research, does anyone know if I can roll a 403b from a previous employer directly into a 529?

and a better question is: is a 529 the best way to save for college?
Eyashusa - no you cannot roll a 403b into a 529 plan.

The only options for a non Transfer of Assets are Direct Rollovers which are applicable when rolling from a Qualified (403b, 401k, profit sharing plan, MPP etc) to a non qualified plan (ira, sep ira, simple ira etc) or vica versa.

You would have to distribute from your 403(b) and suffer 20% mandatory federal withholding, and it'd count as a distribution meaning you'd receive a 1099R.

Also, yes 529 plans are definitely the best vehicle for college savings. Check my firm's plan out, PM me and i can have you purchase at NAV:

https://content.putnam.com/individua...FYik4Aod4yMAeg

We have the second best managed 529 program in the country according to ignites.
 

Aorin

Molten Core Raider
59
13
Eyashusa - no you cannot roll a 403b into a 529 plan.

The only options for a non Transfer of Assets are Direct Rollovers which are applicable when rolling from a Qualified (403b, 401k, profit sharing plan, MPP etc) to a non qualified plan (ira, sep ira, simple ira etc) or vica versa.

You would have to distribute from your 403(b) and suffer 20% mandatory federal withholding, and it'd count as a distribution meaning you'd receive a 1099R.

Also, yes 529 plans are definitely the best vehicle for college savings. Check my firm's plan out, PM me and i can have you purchase at NAV:

https://content.putnam.com/individua...FYik4Aod4yMAeg

We have the second best managed 529 program in the country according to ignites.
Hah fuck this guy. Check your own state plans for tax advantages. If there aren't any look at the Utah or New York plan. The putnam shit above has crazy high fees.
 
6,216
8
Haha exactly. You are average with all the other shitty companies out there ripping people off. 1%+ fees on most everything in that pdf plus a bunch of bullshit loads.
okay so you've clarified you shouldn't be posting in this thread. thanks.
 

Falstaff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,446
3,393
Azeth: Thanks for the info. I will check out Putnam and let you know.

Illinois does have it's own program so I am going to look at that first.