tad10
Elisha Dushku
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Slows content consumption which is a good thing. OTOH, it's only acceptable if there's some horizontal progression available through current content - all progression can't be blocked.
Is the MMO Market imploding?
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Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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yeah, blocking other player progression is like most other game systems, depends on the game its build around. Presumably such a game has a pvp component. The pvp component could be overt, in terms of actual player combat. I mean, gw2, holding stonemist, is that not blocking player/guild progression in a way?
But it can be done in other ways as well. Dofus has factions, taxes, elected officials. the pvp here is purely social and economic. you compete for economic control, market control, and player control.
Eve online has both of course.
But it can be done in other ways as well. Dofus has factions, taxes, elected officials. the pvp here is purely social and economic. you compete for economic control, market control, and player control.
Eve online has both of course.
This was only ever acceptable because the pre-levelcap content could be rewarding. I doubt we'll ever see that again. No modern MMORPG will be designed so that items you get at level 30 can be highly useful (or utterly crucial, as they often were in EQ) at the maximum level. Without this, there's not much point or entertainment in the leveling process because nothing you do there matters.
The lack of appreciation for the "journey" in modern MMORPG-players isn'tjustbecause they've become witless, uncultured plebs, it's mainly because these modern games really have almost nothing worth seeing along the way. If everything you do throughout 1-49 becomes completely irrelevant the moment you hit 50, why spend any more time there than absolutely necessary?
Everquest had important quest items like jboots and flux staff, it had gear you could get in your mid-levels that would be the best until literally endgame raid gear, it had stuff you could farm and make considerable wealth off of, and it had quests for spells and, situationally, faction. Without any of this, would it really have beenthatinteresting to be level 30 aside from the fact that the whole MMORPG genre was new and amazing?
Don't expect to see beefy grinds in modern games. In order to function, it requires something that the industry has left behind and won't likely go back to again. Can't say I really miss grinding entire consecutive days for one level, anyway.
Skanda
I'm Amod too!
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^
Some of the most fun I had in EQ was racing rival guilds through the first floor of Vex Thal. It did suck when we lost the race but there were always other raids for us to to go hit up. I would love to see something like that reintroduced to MMOs but there would definitely need to be enough stuff in the game so the loser of any race wasn't totally fucked for the night.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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dont agree.
I think some devs have learned something from the D3 fiasco. As well as some other games.
I am pretty sure a hell of alot have learned that making endgame being purely gear is a huge mistake.
A path of exile like, Gems, runes,skills and gear allows so much more expansion without being a +gooder treadmill. Expect more of this, or card battle type loadouts. Both of which allow early game itemization to be effective end game. If level 20 "gear" is a gem that can be socketed, which gives +1 projectiles. that shit will always be relevant.
I would cry tears of joy if Blizzard had made Path of Exile but with Blizzard quality storytelling, networking (okay, networking when it's all fixed and done), etc. Path of Exile is the game that probably a lot of people wish D3 had been, except it needs more polish (they still have pretty big desync issues).
Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
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Lol! So you want your Path of Exile halting you every 3 minutes for needless (and terrible) exposition of some sort? God I fucking hate D3's version of "story."
Siddar
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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It would be awesome to watch 98% of the were so elite WoW generation of raiders suddenly have to deal with fact that there in servers 10th placed guild and that has real consequences. It would bring the Drama back to mmogs. I have zero desire to actually put up with that nonsense ever again though but it would be fun to read about it on the forums.
At least they'd give better reasons for doing random shit. I at least generally knew what was happening in D3 but I hardly have any idea (or care at all) about PoE's story even though I've played through it.
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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I am playing through D3 for the first time on console now. (Taking forever as I am playing with a friend who has limited free time.) I can say that Cain's death scene was the most anti-climactic death in video game history. That old fucker's been to hell and back, but when he gets tickled by some dinky little red pain whip, he croaks... wth. Cain should have sacrificed himself by jamming a soulstone into his heart and then jumping into a vortex of awesome CG effects that results in an explosion that rocks the high heavens. At the very least.
Anyways, the story in Path of Exile was fairly straight forward I thought.
- You wash up on shore after your ship is pulverized. You help an encampment of shipwrecked survivors by killing off the local crazies, the ghosts of pirates past and then some squidbilly bitch.
- Then you help an encampment of indigenous tribal hunters by killing off the local fauna, three crazed gang leaders and a dark god made manifest in a machine.
- After that you arrive in the shattered capital of the isle and help out an encampment of political refugees by killing off the local tyrannical legion who is commanded by a blood crazed, flesh shaping, mage/witch who is also possessed by the spirit of a dark god.
- Finally you walk into a weird tower and do it all over again two more times before getting lost under a pile of old maps.
- I had to chuckle when I read that. Not ribbing on your post, it is just that washing up on some shore/arriving in a ship in an RPG as the opening gives me major deja vu. Age of Conan, FFXIV, EQ2 and Morrowind are just a few that come to mind, but there were many more(also single player). So much so that when I found myself on that ship in the FFXIV opening cutscene I had to stifle a yawn.
Off course lots of stuff is being rehashed: after being thrown right into a full scale war in Warhammer Online, Rift did the same. I guess there are only so many iconic ways how to start your path to glory, going from rags to riches.
My favorites are still starting out in some rural, remote setting as a stableboy or some, and then something happens that drags you (unwillingly) in some grand scheme, that will will finally turn you into a hero. Not a fan of the "Destined to be a Hero from the start" thing, or the "arriving on a ship/beach and join the war" thing. Just opinion off course. Anyway, back to the topic.
Azrayne
Irenicus did nothing wrong
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Are you kidding? DAOC had almost no questing content at all. They added some with one of the post-WoW expansions (it sucked and nobody used it), but pre-WoW, DAoC was entirely about grinding with groups in dungeons or certain XP spots. There were the occasional quests for items, class quests, and kill tasks, but those were only a fraction of the total XP intake, and nothing at all like WoW's extensive questing system.
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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Have you looked at the allakhazam link I did put to refresh your memory? I did play DAOC, and did questing, and I constantly had 10+ quests in progress all the time until around level 25. Fedex, collect, etc. The quests may not have given you enough XP to level just doing them after level 12 (and, like every other content in DAOC, dried out beyond 25ish), but to say that WoW questing system was "totally unlike anything else before" is false, unless the "totally unlike anything" means "giving you 10 times more XP per quest than the system it was an almost complete copy of".
Nope, let's derail some more. Borderlands 1 and 2 I think both qualify, even if you're dumped off a bus/train instead of a boat, it's just a play on that trope.
Dungeon siege 2 used the boat trope, even though 1 and 3 used variants of the stableboy trope. I liked DS2 my favorite of the 3.
I think Mass Effect... even though you "literally" start out dumped off by a ship, did a great job of not making it feel like you're not just dumped off and abandoned at the start, but instead merely deployed as part of an ongoing storyline.
The Elder Scrolls always has you start out as a powerless prisoner, which is kind of the same as a stableboy, I think I prefer the farmboy learning to swing a sword to the genetic dragon/demon genetics of Elder Scrolls unlocking.
Even though you're basically "dumped off" at the start of each Grand Theft Auto game, I think the series does a much better job than most in terms of setting up the plot.(Haven't played 5), much more akin to HL 1/2, you're basically immersed right from the beginning.
Ultimately, I think the best stories are the ones that develop through the interactive gameplay, not ones that are told via a narrative, Civilization for me has a better story than say, Diablo 3.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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yeah, to keep this derail going. (oops)
cliches occur in narratives alot for a reason. there is often only a few ways to sensibly explain gameplay at times.
Particularly in video games you need to explain why the player character is a moron, and knows NOTHING about the world they live in.
So we get, amnesia ALOT, or stranger to a new land. Stranger/wanderer is good and easy to explain and have the character capable as well. Which is the main problem with "farmboy" in a rags to riches story. When that kid, peasant, whatever, inexplicably is the best swordsman in the world it can also bring you out of the story, if you are not careful.
Why shipwrecks? well, they answer alot of narrative questions. 1. stranger/traveler/merc. The outright say, this character is coming from somewhere else, and thus is in a strange land to them. 2. Experienced. Since they were traveling, we can establish the character had a history, and we have no reason to doubt why this character can wield magic, or weapons. 3. why are they naked and level1? shipwreck! force of nature stripped them of their gear. And as a force of nature,(or possibly seige warfare), having the character stripped of power for the start of the game, isn't really that depowering. Having your character stripped of gear by local bandits for example, would be kindof lame, and make your character look kindof like a schmuck.
PoE uses a very similar narrative style to Diablo1 of course. Even D2 had more in terms of sending you off to do things. Cut scenes in between acts, and more involved dialogues. But PoE is like D1. there is narrative there, if you pay attention. You as a player, are an exile. you are on a prison ship at the beginning of the game. The voiceover outright tells you, your backstory and what lead to you being exiled to Wraeclast. The plot for the game is, you are one of many. Wraeclast has its own plotline. Wraeclast is a prison continent. The old empire here based in Sarn collapsed. Purity gems turning people into monsters. Its not clear if skill gems and purity gems are related yet. Piety and Gravicis are from the mainland, and have brought the Empire here looking to learn about the Purity gems.
This is what we have so far. More specific information in game.
Like you learn in act3 iirc, that Merviel's amulet that cursed her, and turned her into a monster was a purity gem. and you of course learn about purity gems in act2, in the tower of sin. and from piety in act2/3.
Your player character doesn't really have any personal involvement. You are just a survivor forced to live here.
cliches occur in narratives alot for a reason. there is often only a few ways to sensibly explain gameplay at times.
Particularly in video games you need to explain why the player character is a moron, and knows NOTHING about the world they live in.
So we get, amnesia ALOT, or stranger to a new land. Stranger/wanderer is good and easy to explain and have the character capable as well. Which is the main problem with "farmboy" in a rags to riches story. When that kid, peasant, whatever, inexplicably is the best swordsman in the world it can also bring you out of the story, if you are not careful.
Why shipwrecks? well, they answer alot of narrative questions. 1. stranger/traveler/merc. The outright say, this character is coming from somewhere else, and thus is in a strange land to them. 2. Experienced. Since they were traveling, we can establish the character had a history, and we have no reason to doubt why this character can wield magic, or weapons. 3. why are they naked and level1? shipwreck! force of nature stripped them of their gear. And as a force of nature,(or possibly seige warfare), having the character stripped of power for the start of the game, isn't really that depowering. Having your character stripped of gear by local bandits for example, would be kindof lame, and make your character look kindof like a schmuck.
PoE uses a very similar narrative style to Diablo1 of course. Even D2 had more in terms of sending you off to do things. Cut scenes in between acts, and more involved dialogues. But PoE is like D1. there is narrative there, if you pay attention. You as a player, are an exile. you are on a prison ship at the beginning of the game. The voiceover outright tells you, your backstory and what lead to you being exiled to Wraeclast. The plot for the game is, you are one of many. Wraeclast has its own plotline. Wraeclast is a prison continent. The old empire here based in Sarn collapsed. Purity gems turning people into monsters. Its not clear if skill gems and purity gems are related yet. Piety and Gravicis are from the mainland, and have brought the Empire here looking to learn about the Purity gems.
This is what we have so far. More specific information in game.
Like you learn in act3 iirc, that Merviel's amulet that cursed her, and turned her into a monster was a purity gem. and you of course learn about purity gems in act2, in the tower of sin. and from piety in act2/3.
Your player character doesn't really have any personal involvement. You are just a survivor forced to live here.
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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The more freedom a player is given, in terms of character creation, the less detail can be included in the backstory. Unless a backstory generating tool is provided, which in it's most basic form is a blank sheet for the player to write down their thoughts about their character's origin.
When I played through Ice Wind Dale, the characters generated for the party are about as generic as they come. However, by picking a portrait, using that as a constraint for the class choice and weapon and magic school specializations and then drafting up some back stories in the character descriptions, I wound up with a small group that felt a lot more connected and coherent. It made me more invested in these characters and enhanced the experience, even if it had no true bearing on combat performance or NPC interaction.
Lots of games are not capable of, or simply choose not to provide a good way to make a character really yours before you begin. Most customization is cosmetic or combat oriented. I understand why this is, those are the two elements that will create the largest impact on the playing experience. But being able to have a real sense of history about a character, how they came to be who they are and seeing those elements reflected in how they interact with the game world is great, but often costly to develop.
As for how to tell the story the character is involved with, I think letting players actually, you know, play through the story is the way to go. In a movie, the story is a lot more powerful if you show the audience rather than simply have characters talk about it. In a game it's the same way, use the interaction between player and environment to introduce the elements of the story and expound upon them, and not just have them discussed by some talking heads.
When I played through Ice Wind Dale, the characters generated for the party are about as generic as they come. However, by picking a portrait, using that as a constraint for the class choice and weapon and magic school specializations and then drafting up some back stories in the character descriptions, I wound up with a small group that felt a lot more connected and coherent. It made me more invested in these characters and enhanced the experience, even if it had no true bearing on combat performance or NPC interaction.
Lots of games are not capable of, or simply choose not to provide a good way to make a character really yours before you begin. Most customization is cosmetic or combat oriented. I understand why this is, those are the two elements that will create the largest impact on the playing experience. But being able to have a real sense of history about a character, how they came to be who they are and seeing those elements reflected in how they interact with the game world is great, but often costly to develop.
As for how to tell the story the character is involved with, I think letting players actually, you know, play through the story is the way to go. In a movie, the story is a lot more powerful if you show the audience rather than simply have characters talk about it. In a game it's the same way, use the interaction between player and environment to introduce the elements of the story and expound upon them, and not just have them discussed by some talking heads.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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yeah. A good comparison would be DCUO vs Champions online, or City of Heroes.
DCUO really removed any ability to give your character its own backstory. in the world of superheroes, I found this a cardinal sin. Capes are all about origin stories. there is a reason we see them remade over and over again, with little real long term character development. having players create their own character, then removing the ability to establish there own backstory to explain their powers, etc was a terrible choice.
MMO's in general tend to be "create your own character" of course, so yeah, a blank background that allows you to fill it in is usually better.
But again, not all mmos HAVE to be like that. Marvels arpg "mmo" which is of course is genre bending in being an mmo at all... but still.
DCUO really removed any ability to give your character its own backstory. in the world of superheroes, I found this a cardinal sin. Capes are all about origin stories. there is a reason we see them remade over and over again, with little real long term character development. having players create their own character, then removing the ability to establish there own backstory to explain their powers, etc was a terrible choice.
MMO's in general tend to be "create your own character" of course, so yeah, a blank background that allows you to fill it in is usually better.
But again, not all mmos HAVE to be like that. Marvels arpg "mmo" which is of course is genre bending in being an mmo at all... but still.
My Sr Editor wrote this op-ed on how dynamic events aren't really dynamic (FFXIV GW2 Rift etc.) and how shitty they are and what they really need to be.
http://junkiesnation.com/2013/09/23/....Kq16kS5m.dpbs
Good read imo.
http://junkiesnation.com/2013/09/23/....Kq16kS5m.dpbs
Good read imo.