IT/Software career thread: Invert binary trees for dollars.

Citz_sl said:

My experience has been that people who learned how to code without getting a degree, know how to code but doesn't know how to build a software. You get to work with spaghetti code and a general clusterfuck. It gets worse if you plug a UI into that. They usually get the "software" out the door much faster but the maintenance will be twice as costly.

I will grant you, these kind of people also happen even if they have a degree but at least, they are fewer in numbers. And as BrotherWu mentionned, they also know many good basic concepts (data structures & algorithms being the main important one).

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The stuff you are mentioning matters in certain industries like finance where math is important. However, most software development doesn't require math skills at all. Bad developers are bad no matter if they have a degree or not. If someone likes coding and is interested in the concepts and writing good code they will be able to do so teaching themselves. Drive and will to become good at what you do is more important than anything else. People who have pride and ambition will become good developers regardless of formal education. People without those two traits will suck no matter what. My degree and schooling was practically worthless and most of the developers here on RR have stated the same about their formal CS education. First, you need a good teacher and in CS "those who can't do, teach" rings very, very true from what I've seen. In many cases it's like the blind leading the deaf and it can seriously hamper someone's ability to learn the right way.

Prestigious schools known for their CS programs will benefit anyone immensely and will turn out developers that are much stronger in the field than if they had taught themselves. However, your local community college is not going to do that for you. Where you go to school is important, and if you can't get into or don't feel like paying the boku bucks it will cost you to get an education at one of those places teaching yourself is the better option in my opinion.

Dumar_sl said:

Consultants are not programmers / engineers. I've been both. Most consultants have history / business / whatever degrees.

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That's exactly the point I was making. Thanks for agreeing?

Tuco_sl said:

This is an important point. A close person to me worked for a big company for 28 years. He started out as a technician working a line, then worked his way up to being a respected engineer. He lost his job during the automotive layoffs and now he is stymied because he doesn't have a degree.

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This can't be true. No self respecting development hiring manager would forego someone with actual industry experience simply because they didn't get a bachelor's 28 years ago in FORTRAN. I call bullshit, he probably can't get a job because he sucks at interviewing or just plain isn't a good developer. Or are you talking about a non comp-engineer (like civil, aeronautical, etc, because that's an entirely different ball of wax)

It's also likely (even though it's illegal) that this person is being discriminated against based on age. That is a rampant problem in the software world.

Tuco_sl said:

This is an important point. A close person to me worked for a big company for 28 years. He started out as a technician working a line, then worked his way up to being a respected engineer. He lost his job during the automotive layoffs and now he is stymied because he doesn't have a degree.

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This was the prime reason I chose to go to school after leaving the military even though contract work was available (and lucrative). I'm terrified of turning forty and seeing doors closed due to lack of degree. Figured it'd be better to bite the bullet, live lean and grab a degree. I'm wary of entering the work force at 33 but I am fervently hoping that a hiring manager will value (to some degree) the military experience, the internship (that I'll fight tooth and nail to get next year), and that I'll be able to get my foot in the door. My neighbor is also a vet who chose to go the contracting route, and while he is happy with his income, he feels stuck in the sense that he's too busy to get a degree and that he's specializing himself into a field that is largely dependent upon the MIC.

Cad_sl said:

They probably wouldn't hire a 28 year veteran with no degree because they don't have to. There are plenty of 28 year veterans who do have degrees. So why take a chance on the guy with no degree?

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I agree completely -- what I meant is I got out at 28 and am going to school so I can compete better. Many of my peers got out and jumped right into lucrative MIC contracting, but I feel like one can end up "trapped" in a sense. Get complacent and accostomed to the lifestyle, then should the money dry up, find oneself at an enormous disadvantage being 35-40 and needing to branch out but not having the degree.

How many of those are small companies/startups just looking for bodies to code, though? Reading though many of the descriptions it seems like most.

Tenks_sl said:

How many of those are small companies/startups just looking for bodies to code, though? Reading though many of the descriptions it seems like most.

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That doesn't matter. Those are GREAT places to start because if you have an inquisitive mind you have a ton of freedom to learn on the job and make some cool shit all while getting paid (even if the pay isn't great at first). Then you use that experience to leverage other, better jobs in the future. Honestly, as a hiring manager in the software world the only time a degree matters is for that first job, and even then you'll just never be able to convince me it matters all that much. After that most interviewers just won't care, they want to know about your experience and how you approach software development/design/testing etc. And if you have anything over 1 year of real world coding experience and a company still doesn't want to interview you simply because you don't have a bachelor's that isn't a company I'd want to work for. Everyone here who is in the software game knows 1 year of real world experience is worth way more than 4 years at most universities... unless you went to MIT or some other school with outrageously awesome programs and professors.

One point I'd like to make from personal anecdotal evidence is that those with degrees tend to poo-poo those who don't. At my place of employment it's quite obvious that those without degrees are seen as lesser beings. Quite a bit of intellectual snobbery goes on. So I can see where a hiring manager, with a degree, will automatically dismiss applicants without that piece of paper.

And to add onto that, I know plenty of professionals in their field who don't have their degree and they're 10x better at their job than those who do have their degree. Most of the people I know who have their degree don't continue their education/training to become better at what they do. Remind me again why someone who got their degree 10+ years ago feels it's still relevant to their current assignments?

wormie_sl said:

Probably most. But someone with no pedegree is looking for experience to stick on his CV. After that no one will give two fucks if the person has a degree or not.

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No shit, I wouldn't be in the position I was in now if I hadn't grown at small companies. I got lucky with an acquisition and this catapulted my career.

All this if it's needed or not is irrelevant, in IT nothing but skill and curiosity is needed. A degree is a plus, and you never hear a recruiter say "Too bad he DOES have a degree otherwise I would have hired him!".

If you don't have it but have the passion and skill you can make it as good as anyone with it. Trust me, I got three (Bsc, Msc and MBA) and a lot of the brightest people I know barely got their G.E.Ds.

Just wanted to throw my current situation in the mix. I've been working in IT for the past 5 years. My formal education only includes an associates in information tech (lol). The only programming experience I have is basic C# and VB. Job history I went from help desk to lead tech at a food distribution company then jumped to a sysadmin job at a bank about 18 months ago.

In the last 2 years a good bit of software development companies have been moving to my city through a state software development incentive. My question is how realistic is it making the jump from one side to the other? Does working on that side of IT have any benefit to getting my foot in the door? I believe Voyce had posted that he made a similar jump a few pages back.