Justice for Zimmerman

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You guys are missing the point. Even if it crystal clear that you will not be killed, if you are in fear of "great bodily injury" you can respond with deadly force. Great bodily injury can be a pretty wide range of things.

Its one of those reasons you don't go fucking attack people.

Firstly, what if they are just a good fighter and decide to curb stomp you after they kick your ass? Smart decision right?

Secondly, what if they have friends? What if John Good had come off his patio and punted Trayvon in the face then Zimzam and Good went Rodney King on his ass? Smart decision right?

Third, what if Zimzam has a gun, pulls it and puts you in the morgue? Smart decision right?

If Trayvon was in fear for his life, all he had to do was wait until HE was mounted, getting his head slammed into concrete with his nose broken (which probably meant he couldn't see shit) in the dark before he could pull his piece, shoot Zimzam, and walk away from it. He didn't do that, he decided just following him was reason enough to open a can of whoop ass, and brought fists to a gunfight.

Bad decisions were made, he who made the bad decision paid for it with his life. Did he need to die? No. Did he need to attack Zimmerman? Nope. These things are correlated.
 
Tanoomba

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Gavinrad_sl said:
How many people die from freak accidents due to a single blow to the head? I don't know if anyone is actually arguing that Martin was actually planning on beating Zimmerman to death, but that's completely irrelevant. He was beating him severely enough for him to reasonably think he was in danger of serious injury up to and including death, which justified the use of lethal force in defending himself.
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Actually, that's exactly what Hodj was arguing, as irrelevant as it is. Otherwise, we all agree on everything.
 
Tanoomba

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Lithose_sl said:
Around 800 (According to the FBI and Statistical abstract.) That's JUST personal impliments, fists, feet or biting--no slamming heads down on concrete ect.

Fun fact: Fists kill TWICE as many people as assault rifles!
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How many people get into fist fights anddon'tdie? Just curious.
 
spronk

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what we really need is for the government to pay asian people to adopt all black kids, within a generation or two there will be no black thug culture
 
hodj

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Actually, that's exactly what Hodj was arguing, as irrelevant as it is. Otherwise, we all agree on everything.
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No, actually, Gavinrad pretty well summed up exactly what I was arguing, which is that is that he was beating him severely enough to warrant feeling his life was reasonably at risk and therefore the shooting was justified.

Just because you are incapable of expressing a cogent opinion, and have consistently been demolished in this debate, doesn't give you the right to put words in my mouth.

Tanoomba_sl said:
How many people get into fist fights anddon'tdie? Just curious.
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Irrelevant, akin to saying "Well smoking isn't bad for you because think of all the people who smoke and don't get cancer"
 
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Tanoomba_sl said:
How many people get into fist fights anddon'tdie? Just curious.
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Would love to see what you'd do in Zimmerman's situation. Going on the evidence of the case, not some ridiculous suppositions as to what you and the media think might have happened, what would you do when you are mounted, getting punched in the face (nose already broken, which if your nose has ever been broken probably means your vision is screwed) at night while you're screaming for help and now your head is being slammed into the concrete. What do you do? Go "well, in my analysis, very few people are killed in fistfights. I'll just lay here and take it, after all, statistics are on my side! Proceed, young negro! Do no permanent damage plz!"

????

Right
 
Lithose

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Mist_sl said:
So let's say a man is stalking a woman at dusk with intent to rape. He goes to grab her, she turns and pulls a knife. He then shoots her. Should he not be charged with a crime?
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First of...Can you prove he had intent to rape? Through character examination? Like has he raped before? Because we know Zimmerman opened a business with an African American, tutored black kids, did not identify martin as black until asked ect--there was no history of racial hatred during the examination of his character (No witnesses called to attest to it ect.). Remember how easily racism allows character deconstruction (Mark Furman, in O.J.)--so it's obvious the prosecutors would be looking for it in their witnesses.

Okay, so in your scenario, to be similar we would not be able to prove ANY intent to rape. Nor any history of sexual abuse or assault.AND we'd have to assume the rapist was on the phone with 911 BEFORE "attempting" a rape (The fuck?)

But lets move on to point 2.

2.) If there was a physical altercation, like him grabbing her, ANDSHE REASONABLY FEARED FOR HER LIFE, than that is legal provocation and he can not use his gun.

However, we know, from testimony, that Trayvon was at his father's house--a couple hundred feet from Zimmerman. They were both on the phone at this time, and were not in each others audible range. Trayvon was AT his door and decided to go BACK to where Zimmerman was. Then the eyewitness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Indicating in the last 4 minutes, it was actually Trayvon following/confronting Zimmerman.

So, there is no way to make your example work. Your example is a false equivalence. If your example HAD happened, he could not use self defense. Sure. But that's like me saying "If Trayvon had pulled a gun, could Zimmerman still not have a shot???" Why even bring it up when it's so far from the events that happened? It's not even in the same ballpark.
 
Kreugen

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Mist, how do you plan on proving 'intent to rape'? If all you can prove is that he grabbed her shoulder before she got stabby, he walks. Bear in mind how flimsy the eyewitness accounts were in the Zagnut trial if you are going to bring up hypothetical cases. For all the jury knows, he could have been asking her for directions.
 
Arbitrary

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Mist_sl said:
So let's say a man is stalking a woman at dusk with intent to rape. He goes to grab her, she turns and pulls a knife. He then shoots her. Should he not be charged with a crime?
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Quick, let's direct the discussion away from this trial to rape and whatever the fuck "intent to rape" is.

edit - stalking has a specific legal definition and using it in that situation is loaded.
 
Vaclav

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Arbitrary_sl said:
Is it still a fist fight when you are getting your head smashed into a concrete sidewalk?
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Note: Him getting his "head smashed" into the concrete was never evidenced pro or con - can we stop just assuming one side of the story is completely accurate and the other is not?

He was evidenced to have hit his head on the concrete ONE TIME, in line with say FALLING ON YOUR FUCKING BACK AND HITTING YOUR HEAD ON CONCRETE ON THE WAY DOWN. I've personally seen people that have literally been curb stomped before (in fact my one trial I've had to juror for was a curb stomping incident locally... horrendous) and amongst other things the had noticeable dents and fragmentation of their skull, not minor contusions. [And note, I've personally had "hit my head" falls due to my health issues, and although I'm not bald to get quite the same visual I bet if I was the wounds were pretty damn close]

Or more in short - unevidenced memes aren't evidence. Stop using them as evidence.
 
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Vaclav_sl said:
Note: Him getting his "head smashed" into the concrete was never evidenced pro or con - can we stop just assuming one side of the story is completely accurate and the other is not?

He was evidenced to have hit his head on the concrete ONE TIME, in line with say FALLING ON YOUR FUCKING BACK AND HITTING YOUR HEAD ON CONCRETE ON THE WAY DOWN. I've personally seen people that have literally been curb stomped before (in fact my one trial I've had to juror for was a curb stomping incident locally... horrendous) and amongst other things the had noticeable dents and fragmentation of their skull, not minor contusions. [And note, I've personally had "hit my head" falls due to my health issues, and although I'm not bald to get quite the same visual I bet if I was the wounds were pretty damn close]

Or more in short - unevidenced memes aren't evidence. Stop using them as evidence.
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There were multiple lacerations on the back of his head.
 
hodj

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Vaclav_sl said:
Note: Him getting his "head smashed" into the concrete was never evidenced pro or con - can we stop just assuming one side of the story is completely accurate and the other is not?

He was evidenced to have hit his head on the concrete ONE TIME, in line with say FALLING ON YOUR FUCKING BACK AND HITTING YOUR HEAD ON CONCRETE ON THE WAY DOWN. I've personally seen people that have literally been curb stomped before (in fact my one trial I've had to juror for was a curb stomping incident locally... horrendous) and amongst other things the had noticeable dents and fragmentation of their skull, not minor contusions. [And note, I've personally had "hit my head" falls due to my health issues, and although I'm not bald to get quite the same visual I bet if I was the wounds were pretty damn close]

Or more in short - unevidenced memes aren't evidence. Stop using them as evidence.
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Wrong.
 
Kreugen

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He tripped and fell onto his nose and the back of his head at the same time, then shot Trayvon while he was trying to help him up. Duh.
 
hodj

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I like the theory that he shot Trayvon after intentionally bashing himself in the nose and the back of the head with the butt of the gun, personally.
 
BoldW

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The extent of injuries don't matter one itsy-bitsy bit. He was in fear for his life. I would be too, only I'd probably be in the hospital or dead as I don't own a gun, let alone carry one.
 
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hodj_sl said:
I like the theory that he shot Trayvon after intentionally bashing himself in the nose and the back of the head with the butt of the gun, personally.
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While screaming for help, too
 
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So explain it. Self defense laws are stupid as written? Why? Or is it the 2nd amendment you're opposed to?

How's about concealed carry laws, are those stupid? Would it have been better if Zimmerman were wearing his gun on the outside, so Martin could go for it even sooner?

You couple kiddos with bad facts keep asserting this shit, but Stand your ground wasn't sought or applied to in this case. So you're basically saying a right to presumption of innocence, a right to self defense, and a right to bear arms are....stupid and badly written laws?

Is that your position?
 
Arbitrary

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Cad_sl said:
There were multiple lacerations on the back of his head.
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The forensic examiner went over how the lack of big gooshy injuries did not mean that there were not multiple blows or significant harm done, that people die all the time from simple head injures. For Vaclav tp say that he would expect injuries as such and not just "minor contusions" shows how our common sense is commonly wrong. The mega experienced forensic examiner also detailed the numerous blows Zimmerman likely suffered.

"He had one bump from falling down once" is just plain fucking wrong. His expectations of big gooshy injuries are wrong.
 
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