League Of Legends

Draegan_sl said:

I think it's obvious it works in any elo since Trick does it in Diamond. Obviously anyone can do anything in any elo if you're good at a champ, but just watching Diamond streams while Trick is doing the same old shit, they still make the same dopey mistakes low elo people do. They just have better mechanics and makes better decisions more often than not.

Click to expand...

One person being able to do it in Diamond (and low diamond at that the last time I watched him stream) doesn't mean something works. It just means there are exceptions to every rule. The guy has lived and breathed Udyr for years so he can get every last bit of good out of the champion. So I guess if our standard for working is being a master at the champ and still not being able to get in to the higher tiers of play then yah, it works. If however the standard is actually being a strong pick at all skill levels but especially high diamond and challenger then what I said stands. Hell there are two Diamond 1 Urgot mains. Does anyone believe Urgot is a consistently strong and workable pick?

Commander Vimeseh_sl said:

It will work pretty regularly until you hit high gold.

Click to expand...

I have no idea why you are such a snob.

Wasn't aware being honest was being a snob.

You act like there's this big difference between ratings. Oh man that Udyr shit may work at bronze but you just wait until you get to the top of gold. Trust me, Udyr is going to fall off like a motherfucker!

It's nonsense. You know what separates bronze players and diamond players? Diamond players are better at pushing buttons than bronze players. That's it. I don't know why you even think it matters if a particular character is bad at high ratings when almost every single player who plays the game isn't at those ratings. Plat itself is the top couple percent and plat players suck dick. You start talking about high diamond/challenger and that's a fraction of a percent. Who cares. NA teams are routinely banning Nunu away from LMQ and Nunu's representation in solo queue sucks. His win rate sucks. He pretty much sucks. The jungler of the highest rated team in all of North America ran him to such effect that the rest of NA doesn't want to deal with itand the character sucks.

But if you're good with something you're good with something and being good trumps the group think evaluation of a character.

There is a huge difference between ratings whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Differences in mechanics, game knowledge, map awareness, and objective control. So no it just isn't press button better and win. When I boost buddies accounts I see decent to great mechanical play in bronze/silver/gold all the time. But they heavily lack in all other areas of the game so they are stuck playing in the shit tiers.

I think it matters if a particular character or build is bad at high ratings because the whole point of my post was trying to let Draegan know when the free mmr ride from the madstone Udyr gimmick would begin to drop off or go away entirely. Sure if he wants to be stuck at bronze 3 or whatever he plays at then he can happily play the build for the rest of his league days. If he however wants to climb and continue to climb then that build and that champion are not the way to do it unless he ends up being the next trick2g with 3k Udyr games. He should play it until it stops carrying him higher if that is his goal. The Madstone build is amazing for getting out of the lower tiers quickly, it just doesn't work well (with the rare exception) once everyone is both mechanically good and has a strong foundation in the other important areas of the game.

I do find it ironic that you don't understand why I would bring up Diamond/Challenger solo queue then proceed to bring up how the LCS uses a champ. A setting that is even further removed from the player base in general. Nunu is very strong in organized play as shown over the course of this LCS and recent ogn seasons with multiple teams using him to great effect. He is however an abysmal solo queue champion because he can't carry a game even if he gets fed, whereas his objective control and other strong aspects really shine when your team is working in close coordination with him. None of this however has anything to do with a solo queue game where there is minimal communication and you can't trust the other players to do their jobs correctly.

Commander Vimeseh_sl said:

There is a huge difference between ratings whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Differences in mechanics, game knowledge, map awareness, and objective control. So no it just isn't press button better and win. When I boost buddies accounts I see decent to great mechanical play in bronze/silver/gold all the time. But they heavily lack in all other areas of the game so they are stuck playing in the shit tiers.

I think it matters if a particular character or build is bad at high ratings because the whole point of my post was trying to let Draegan know when the free mmr ride from the madstone Udyr gimmick would begin to drop off or go away entirely. Sure if he wants to be stuck at bronze 3 or whatever he plays at then he can happily play the build for the rest of his league days. If he however wants to climb and continue to climb then that build and that champion are not the way to do it unless he ends up being the next trick2g with 3k Udyr games. He should play it until it stops carrying him higher if that is his goal. The Madstone build is amazing for getting out of the lower tiers quickly, it just doesn't work well (with the rare exception) once everyone is both mechanically good and has a strong foundation in the other important areas of the game.

I do find it ironic that you don't understand why I would bring up Diamond/Challenger solo queue then proceed to bring up how the LCS uses a champ. A setting that is even further removed from the player base in general. Nunu is very strong in organized play as shown over the course of this LCS and recent ogn seasons with multiple teams using him to great effect. He is however an abysmal solo queue champion because he can't carry a game even if he gets fed, whereas his objective control and other strong aspects really shine when your team is working in close coordination with him. None of this however has anything to do with a solo queue game where there is minimal communication and you can't trust the other players to do their jobs correctly.

Click to expand...

So essentially if you don't play Lee Sin, Elise, Vi, Eve, J4 etc. it's impossible to get out of gold? Or are you saying that split pushing never works above gold? Or maybe you're saying farming champs never work past Silver 4?

I watch plenty of streams, and yes there are thousands of ways to get Trick's Godyr build fucked early. I hardly ever see coordinated efforts to fuck his jungle farm up that hold up consistantly over a stretch of a game. But for every game I see a team do that, I see 10 games where most players can free farm for 10 minutes or so while the lanes focus on laning and the only difference between diamond and bronze (outside CS) is that they roam better and get more dragons.

I literally can't play enough games to push myself up into Plat or higher because my gaming time is limited, so thanks for the tip buddy.

edit:
I think Udyr will work a long time as long as I can sneak in free dragons starting at 5 minutes. Two dragons in the first 12 or so minutes is pretty big for every elo until you get to some LCS level shit.

Yea no, people do all kinds of "retarded" shit in Diamond/Challenger and win just fine. There's practically no limit on doing anything you want as far as non-competitive league goes, as long as you do it slightly better than the enemy does their own stupid thing.

In other news, I somehow won my fantasy matchup this weekend. Totally shocked. Still in the running for top 3, from the depths!

I beat lvl 5 doom bots last night. Picked Lux and it was pretty easy mode.

After playing and seeing the new Lucian, I'd be a little surprised if he is played as much in LCS, despite his higher win rate in regular games. It is just too easy to shit all over his laning phase with that 50 range reduction. Trist, the other super popular pick right now, can bully the shit out of him. Once you get two or three items, sure he's a terror, but his early game got so much harder.

People might try and laneswap him for that big ~15 minute power spike, but otherwise yea his laning phase is such dogshit now that I doubt he'll survive a traditional lane at LCS level.

Draegan_sl said:

So essentially if you don't play Lee Sin, Elise, Vi, Eve, J4 etc. it's impossible to get out of gold? Or are you saying that split pushing never works above gold? Or maybe you're saying farming champs never work past Silver 4?

Click to expand...

I never said any of that, I said it doesn't work as well and there is a reason various champs and builds tend to die out when you start looking at their success in varying brackets. For instance Master Yi has a high pick/ban rate in bronze and silver. He also at least last time I checked had a decent win rate in those brackets as well. He doesn't see much action in gold and above and his win rate is abysmal the higher you go. He pretty much works on the same principle as madstone udyr does. Of course there is Cowsep who plays only Yi at Diamond 1 in korea and does really well, but once again he is the exception and not the rule.

I watch plenty of streams, and yes there are thousands of ways to get Trick's Godyr build fucked early. I hardly ever see coordinated efforts to fuck his jungle farm up that hold up consistantly over a stretch of a game. But for every game I see a team do that, I see 10 games where most players can free farm for 10 minutes or so while the lanes focus on laning and the only difference between diamond and bronze (outside CS) is that they roam better and get more dragons.

Click to expand...

Once again if you think the only difference between diamond and bronze is so simple then you rally don't understand the game that well. Unless your lanes are stomping and you are allowed to get all that free farm and free dragons the play style isn't all that effective. I primarily play jungle and support on my accounts. You better be sure that I'll be in your jungle as lee/jarv/rango from level 2-3 on and that dragon will be warded from the four minute mark as soon as I see I'm playing against a madstone. If you have fun with it and it works for you at the moment then play it and enjoy it. But don't get all defensive when someone points out that it isn't optimal past a certain point, especially when the person actually has experience in the tiers that he is talking about in regard to a champion or builds viability.

edit:
I think Udyr will work a long time as long as I can sneak in free dragons starting at 5 minutes. Two dragons in the first 12 or so minutes is pretty big for every elo until you get to some LCS level shit.

Click to expand...

Two dragons in the first 12 minutes is big anywhere. However those free dragons aren't going to happen when people actually start coordinated warding. At that point you are only getting those objectives and farm because your lanes are doing well. If they aren't then you'll be killed when you try that 6-8 minute dragon and your lanes will be behind because you haven't done anything to help them. Its basically the problem with every feral flare jungler, not just Udyr.


edit for Fawe:

In case I am being unclear, I never said a niche or gimmick build can't win games at all levels. I am saying that they are much less effective and not an optimal use of your time if you are concerned with climbing tiers which I believe is the primary goal in ranked. Unless you are T2G or someone like that who has the time to master a champ to the level where they can play it anywhere and in any situation. This will be my last post on the subject since people tend to get all flustered and defensive when someone tells them that their favorite champion or build really isn't all that good. I swear it's like old school wow and telling the damn hunter to just play 1 macro BM in TBC instead of his "I can get it to work" survival or Marks spec.

Commander Vimeseh_sl said:

I primarily play jungle and support on my accounts. You better be sure that I'll be in your jungle as lee/jarv/rango from level 2-3 on and that dragon will be warded from the four minute mark as soon as I see I'm playing against a madstone.

Click to expand...

My eyes, they won't stop rolling.

I want to live in your elo with coordinated warding. Also I'm not defensive, you just sound like the game automatically changes and everyone is a pro at Plat5. I watch Nightblue3 often enough, and I don't see all these invades and counter jungling from himself or others as much as you think you are doing.

Plus if you're spending that much time trying to fuck with my madstone build, you're at least not harassing the lanes and when you are, a champ like Udyr can pick up some farm fast enough.

The madstone Udyr build is not some gimmick that just stops working, the playstyle is about pressure, map awareness and keeping your team off balance. As your gain elo and some tactics stop working, others open up as you become better at the game. It's a natural progression.

I take most stuff posted here and reddit with a grain of salt. Some champs people say suck, don't fit the meta or just don't work often just follow a group think. Then all of the sudden someone does something good with it and it becomes "acceptable". I remember after Shyvanna's rework everyone though she was garbage and a month later (perhaps after a tweak or two?) she became pick or ban.

I dunno, I just find it hard to accept in a very team based game where you put a bunch of strangers together, you're going to find that much coordination in a game to completely shut down that style of play on an ongoing basis game after game.

Arbitrary_sl said:

My eyes, they won't stop rolling.

Click to expand...

That's nice. How about you actually construct an argument that disproves what I'm saying instead of claiming that the only difference between a bronze and Diamond player is how well they press their buttons. I know your whole schtick in this thread is to come in here and fling insults at people without ever actually backing up anything you say. I'm done with the Udyr argument specifically but for someone that has played in plat you have a pretty warped view of the differences between the tiers when it comes to warding, map rotations, jungler aggression, group pushing, objective control, etc. If I know my opposing jungle has a weak early game and is prone to invades then why wouldn't I and my team be warding up their jungle and lane approaches and going after them every chance we get? It's just common sense and nothing special, and its what people do at the higher ratings.

edit for Drae:

Its nice. My mids ward their side entrances, my tops ward their entrance and sometimes my buff or the enemies. My botlanes ward dragon and their entrances if I don't get a chance to, and then i'm usually dropping wards deep in the enemy jungle. Why is this so hard to believe? Watch a bronze to chall or even just the random silver or golds that stream, look at their minimap and then go watch Bjergsen or Nightblu3 and look at theirs. If you don't see a massive difference in warding then I'll eat my hat.

2nd edit so I don't double post:

I never said anyone was pro at plat five. and the change isn't automatic but it is there, especially if you want to get out of plat five or gold 6, whatever you want to call it.

You basically have two ways of shutting down farm junglers, including madstone, you can either pressure them in their jungle and set their power spike far enough back that it becomes irrelevant. This doesn't actually take that much effort. If you kill them once or maybe twice in the first 8 minutes of the game or at the very least make them base while you take their camps then you have effectively set them back by five to ten minutes depending on the rest of their team is doing, this doesn't take in to account any future pressures.

The second method is just to gank the enemy lanes like crazy and snow ball your team, even a fourteen minute feral flare udyr isn't going to do much against a 3-1 150+ farm at 15 min jinx or the mid Xerath that has great farm and multiple kills. Both methods work to shut him down and you aren't really going out of your way to do either because this is what most of the meta jungles do anyway right now.

As far as your point about group think and champs being out of meta or coming in because someone figures out something new to do with them, sure that happens. But in your particular instance madstone udyr isn't new. Its been for a couple months at this point and barring some other revolution in the playstyle (or nerfing of other things) its already shown what it can do at varying mmr's. If you had talked about playing it back when Flare was first released then I would have been encouraging you to ride it as hard as you can ( I did) because at that point it was broken and overpowerd. As of now its really niche and is entirely too dependent upon your team holding up for the 20 minutes it takes you to join the game.

Commander Vimeseh_sl said:

for someone that has played in plat you have a pretty warped view of the differences between the tiers when it comes to warding, map rotations, jungler aggression, group pushing, objective control, etc.

Click to expand...

Hey now, Upper plat! I was failing promos for Plat 1 pretty regularly before I stepped back. There are low diamond players in those games you know. And I've done to the silver to plat thing on multiple accounts in multiple seasons and have played from 400 Elo to 1500 Elo in S1. I've seen things. Those experiences have given me an insight you lack.

Commander Vimeseh_sl said:

Its nice. My mids ward their side entrances, my tops ward their entrance and sometimes my buff or the enemies. My bot lanes ward dragon and their entrances if I don't get a chance to, and then I'm usually dropping wards deep in the enemy jungle. Why is this so hard to believe?

Click to expand...

NO REALLY GAMES ARE DIFFERENT UP HERE. No, they aren't. It's confirmation bias mixed with a little bit of The Emperor's New Clothes.

Are you honestly suggesting the general level of play is no different between plat and silver? There are more difference between those players besides just reflexes, come on.

Arbitrary_sl said:

Hey now, Upper plat! I was failing promos for Plat 1 pretty regularly before I stepped back. There are low diamond players in those games you know. And I've done to the silver to plat thing on multiple accounts in multiple seasons and have played from 400 Elo to 1500 Elo in S1. I've seen things. Those experiences have given me an insight you lack.

Click to expand...

I started at bronze 2 in S3 and now play in upper plat/lower diamond depending on how much of a shitter I'm playing like at the time. So I have plenty of insight in to the differences between tiers. I also play on friends accounts when they want to get out of bronze/silver, so I have recent experience as to what the lower tiers are like.

NO REALLY GAMES ARE DIFFERENT UP HERE. No, they aren't. It's confirmation bias mixed with a little bit of The Emperor's New Clothes.

Click to expand...

Yes I am completely sure the only difference between perennial bronzies and diamond level players is how well they mash their buttons. Bronze players team fight as well, rotate as well, control objectives as well, use proper item builds, use as many wards, and are just as good at every other aspect of the game as plat+ players are. The only reason they aren't playing with Dyrus is because the just can't figure out how to right click and hit those four abilities at the appropriate skill level.

edit:

No he doesn't ancient. He just likes taking the opposite position of anything I say in this thread. It happens pretty much every time I post. However I'm easily riled and when you work from home you have a shit ton of time to get in to pointless arguments on the internet.

The Ancient_sl said:

Are you honestly suggesting the general level of play is no different between plat and silver? There are more difference between those players besides just reflexes, come on.

Click to expand...

Not reflexes, mechanical skill. The execution side of the game.

edit since you won't fucking stop editing -

Commander Vimeseh_sl said:

He just likes taking the opposite position of anything I say in this thread. It happens pretty much every time I post. However I'm easily riled and when you work from home you have a shit ton of time to get in to pointless arguments on the internet.

Click to expand...

Get over yourself. I haven't posted more than a few times a month in this thread since May.

Amzin_sl said:

After playing and seeing the new Lucian, I'd be a little surprised if he is played as much in LCS, despite his higher win rate in regular games. It is just too easy to shit all over his laning phase with that 50 range reduction. Trist, the other super popular pick right now, can bully the shit out of him. Once you get two or three items, sure he's a terror, but his early game got so much harder.

Click to expand...

One LCS player (I forgot who) said hes excited about the changes and can't wait to play him in LCS. I tend to agree though , unless you can get through that laning phase its going to be a bad time, however, I could see him go mid/top maybe since he does so much burst and can dash like crazy.