League Of Legends

Teekey

Mr. Poopybutthole
3,644
-6,335
At LCS during loading do both sides get to tab out and look up the runes and masteries of each player on the opposing team? I don't know how it works but I really can't believe they get that information.
What the fuck does LCS have to do with normal play? They either look at the stats as soon as the enemy is visible...or not, because as I said - builds are pretty standard for most roles/champions. There's not much cheese going on in LCS.

I personally put considerable value in both consistency and in gamesmanship. If it's information people are supposed to have than alright. If it is information that is supposed to be kept secret than alright. But this third party website business is for the birds.
It's not really kept secret considering you can see the enemy's stats in game. I don't really get what advantage you think it really gives. In 99% of instances, it doesn't matter at all. For the 1% that want to go full AD Runes Rengar to get a gimmicky First Blood, it might tip off the enemy. Or are you just griping out of the principle?
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
30,819
87,056
edit - I wish I had quoted you because the spirit of your entire post changed. I choose not to edit mine.

Normal play? Who is talking about normals? I'm talking about ranked, the first step towards competitive play. You do realize that the top 5v5 teams get chances to go pro, right? The game should work the same in as my levels as possible.

Seeing the enemy's stats in game tells you some things, sure. For that to happen you have to be in a game with the clock ticking and have sight of them and then click on them and be able to quickly analyze the following stats -

Attack Damage
Ability Power
Attack Speed
Armor
Magic Resist
Movement Speed
HP
Mana

You don't see GP10, Crit Chance, Penetration, Health Regen, +Exp, Mana Regen, Lifesteal, Spellvamp, Crit Damage, and probably a couple others I've forgotten. Did the jungle Lee go with all Flat AD? All Armor Pen? A mix? Does he have Lifesteal runes? Let's say someoneisrunning something unusual. That shouldn't be discouraged by the usage of third party websites that mine data from the client.
 

Sidian

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,279
7
Whelp, just got Plat 2 right before ranked queue was getting disabled. Guess this means tomorrow I just do dominion/normals until I get use to all the changes. Did they ever mention when they want Season 4 to actually start up? I've been enjoying ranked quite a bit lately but if the soft reset + s4 is going to start up fairly soon I don't really have much motivation to grind ranked.
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
8,425
8,194
Who wants to run double relic shield bruiser bot with me. Darius J4, next stop diamond.
 

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
2,750
47
As a scro who isn't even level 30 yet, all those patch notes seem pretty cool to me, especially the support having more gold things.

Picked up Thresh(?) the lantern guy the other day, dude is pretty damn fun. His E is kinda weird to get used to though.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Man Morello is getting dumpstered on the official forums.Surrender at 20: [ Updated ] Red Post Collection: Morello on Preseason Support, Team Builder back on PBE, Post Incident Messaging for EU, Update on OCE server skin, and more!

With 3.14 on the way, Morello has posted on the forums in an attempt to clear the air on some of the support balance changes included in the patch.
"Let me speak to this a little;
In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.
We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:
1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.
3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).
A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?"
When criticized for the the "Black Cleaver OP" fiasco from early S3, he replied:
"Sure - it's true this stuff is pretty complex and difficult. Does the short-term Black Cleaver issue (that we then fixed) mean we shouldn't have made the changes at all? That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

If the worries are true, then we'll address it to make sure it's not permanent."
When asked why Janna and Lulu received nerfs but nothing to Annie's ( who has recently emeraged as a popular support pick ) AP ratios, he responded:
"When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages."
As for an overall view on the changes and traditional supports, he commented:
"The support changes (Leona as an exception and experiment) are here to ensure core helpers are scaling in a new way. Tanks and Fighters (Thresh is a Fighter/Support hybird, really) have understood scaling frameworks that are well-understood - supports are the only characters who have never had a way to scale that made sense for them, was cohesive with their place in the game, and balancable."
Commenting on the communities reaction to these preseason changes, he noted:
"You guys are reacting to what is a temporal, possible problem in a time when those will be the case; preseason. There's a specific reason we wait until between Ranked Seasons to do this stuff - to make sure the details can be managed before it's "for keeps." The direction is theory-craftable, but details really aren't."
He continued:
"If this is the problem, we can increase support utility ratios - and if that is really not good, we will. It's a real risk, but the difference is this is a temporal issue, just like League of X was in preseason last year. That's the time to do this stuff, get the data/feedback, and get it in tuning for 2014. If I seem like I'm not worried, it's because the path forward is clear in any case - the whole preseason plan is predicated on tuning being imperfect and us being on-deck to fix it."

When asked what's so wrong with traditional supports ( such as Soraka, Taric, Sona, Nami, Leona, and Lulu ) having high AP ratios and doing damage, he replied:
"They do deal some. :p Not a ton because they shield, heal, buff and speed up allies. Sometimes they have tank-level CC.
I need to leave for now. Bottom line on this stuff;
1) Supports can do some damage; supports are not primary damage-dealers.
2) If the tuning is off and AP mids blow away support characters, we'll adjust aggressively throughout preseason.
3) Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact)."
As for why Riot didn't just add the utility scaling and leave the AP ratios alone until more testing could be done, he commented:
"We did this originally and it was crazyland. These nerfs after the best stab after 3 months of internal testing."
When asked about scaling CC times up with AP, Morello commented:
"Don't want to scale CC with AP at all. Might be tough for a couple characters (though they likely just scale better on HP/CDR)."


I mean seriously, what are they thinking with those support changes? The support scaling is pretty shitty, they can't do damage. What the fuck is gold going to really do to them now? You're going to be buying items now! Yay! I just gained 5% on my slow! IMPACTFUL GAMEPLAY.

I'm fine with this because support characters suck to play. They're in the same group as people who enjoy playing a healer in MMOs. Now you'll feel even more useless, except for maybe Leona as she now can become a bit tankier which is cool.

I'm all about creating a duo lane that's more about DPS/Tank, DPS/Control, DPS/Assassinate. The idea of an ADC who is farming up with another champ that just slaughters/pokes/zones the opponent is a great one. I hope that becomes the norm because it'll help me in solo queue getting stuck with support and then getting stuck with a shitty ADC that refuses to take advantage of me CCing or zoning. Now I won't feel as hopeless. Only time I enjoy playing a traditional Support is when I duo queue with a friend ADCing.

edit:
On Jungle items, Wriggles is still shitty, but now you'll be able to use two wards. Might be helpful with a counter jungler type of player. I can see Trick2g, as someone mentioned, using it with Udyr or Volibear. Armor and attack speed are great on them and both champs really don't need offensive stats to be good.

Though, Arbitrary's right that all the health returns on all the times is really low. Not sure how much that all really helps, but I do like the Spectral Wraith item though.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
7,386
16
As a scro who isn't even level 30 yet, all those patch notes seem pretty cool to me, especially the support having more gold things.

Picked up Thresh(?) the lantern guy the other day, dude is pretty damn fun. His E is kinda weird to get used to though.
Don't get too fond of him, he's still a permaban at 30.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
As a scro who isn't even level 30 yet, all those patch notes seem pretty cool to me, especially the support having more gold things.

Picked up Thresh(?) the lantern guy the other day, dude is pretty damn fun. His E is kinda weird to get used to though.
Thresh is great. I'm still waiting for the day I can top lane him. It'll never happen even though he's labeled as a Fighter/Support rather than just a support. His base stats and stats per level are garbage though. I think they upped his animation speed, I have no idea if that made the slightest difference though.
 

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,647
1,187
Man Morello is getting dumpstered on the official forums.Surrender at 20: [ Updated ] Red Post Collection: Morello on Preseason Support, Team Builder back on PBE, Post Incident Messaging for EU, Update on OCE server skin, and more!

With 3.14 on the way, Morello has posted on the forums in an attempt to clear the air on some of the support balance changes included in the patch.
"Let me speak to this a little;
In the initial reveal, we were talking about the new gold flow for supports - more gold, items and general "agency" being something long overdue for Support characters (in this context, Soraka, Sona, Lulu, Taric, Janna and Nami) who have been overworked and underfed despite actual impact or performance.
We now have a world of characters who have been only balanced to have no gold now having quite a bit of gold! This comes with a few truths:
1) The old support balance base lines no longer are balanced and valid, anymore than if we increased Marksmen, Fighter or Mage gold by the same amount would be.

2) Supports have been previously defined as "characters who function well with no gold." Now that's no longer the case, overtuned/undertuned mages (if we'd not made changes) is a bad identity. By introducing support scaling, supports become MORE supportive through gold - either through acquisition of active items or AP scaling on utility. This is all done specifically to not have AP Mages and Supports fight each other in a raw numbers perspective, and instead provide supports with scaling that fits their role of helping people and working with their team.
3) Looking at these changes, seeing "NERFS" as the takeaway is...well, I don't know how to put it....insane. One of the patch notes could be "increased income by 3000-6000 gold per game". We actually were very conservative on these champion changes in an effort to protect supports from obsoletion (and will react aggressively if that becomes the case in practice).
A glance at the patch notes can read like a nerf, if you ignore the context or associated changes. AP Mids may have additional viability bottom lane, though our changes are specifically to bulwark against that.

Support needed satisfaction, a more fleshed-out identity of "helper," and a place in the game that's real and valid. That's the entire premise of the preseason support changes.

EDIT: Unreasonable rage downvotes, or real thing that you guys disagree with?"
When criticized for the the "Black Cleaver OP" fiasco from early S3, he replied:
"Sure - it's true this stuff is pretty complex and difficult. Does the short-term Black Cleaver issue (that we then fixed) mean we shouldn't have made the changes at all? That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

If the worries are true, then we'll address it to make sure it's not permanent."
When asked why Janna and Lulu received nerfs but nothing to Annie's ( who has recently emeraged as a popular support pick ) AP ratios, he responded:
"When Lulu and Janna could lane and get gold she pushed Annie out of mid lane - these characters have gone insane with normal gold multiple times when allowed to solo lane. Now we COULD see a world where one of these characters can solo and we won't have to gut it - one definite advantage.

These characters should be about SUPPORT. If they're about damage, they're not support at all - they're mages."
As for an overall view on the changes and traditional supports, he commented:
"The support changes (Leona as an exception and experiment) are here to ensure core helpers are scaling in a new way. Tanks and Fighters (Thresh is a Fighter/Support hybird, really) have understood scaling frameworks that are well-understood - supports are the only characters who have never had a way to scale that made sense for them, was cohesive with their place in the game, and balancable."
Commenting on the communities reaction to these preseason changes, he noted:
"You guys are reacting to what is a temporal, possible problem in a time when those will be the case; preseason. There's a specific reason we wait until between Ranked Seasons to do this stuff - to make sure the details can be managed before it's "for keeps." The direction is theory-craftable, but details really aren't."
He continued:
"If this is the problem, we can increase support utility ratios - and if that is really not good, we will. It's a real risk, but the difference is this is a temporal issue, just like League of X was in preseason last year. That's the time to do this stuff, get the data/feedback, and get it in tuning for 2014. If I seem like I'm not worried, it's because the path forward is clear in any case - the whole preseason plan is predicated on tuning being imperfect and us being on-deck to fix it."

When asked what's so wrong with traditional supports ( such as Soraka, Taric, Sona, Nami, Leona, and Lulu ) having high AP ratios and doing damage, he replied:
"They do deal some. :p Not a ton because they shield, heal, buff and speed up allies. Sometimes they have tank-level CC.
I need to leave for now. Bottom line on this stuff;
1) Supports can do some damage; supports are not primary damage-dealers.
2) If the tuning is off and AP mids blow away support characters, we'll adjust aggressively throughout preseason.
3) Having not had gold in 3 years is not a counter-argument for why this class can not have damage nerfs when it should be focused on utility, which is how we will likely continue to scale them (CD's, duration, intensity, impact)."
As for why Riot didn't just add the utility scaling and leave the AP ratios alone until more testing could be done, he commented:
"We did this originally and it was crazyland. These nerfs after the best stab after 3 months of internal testing."
When asked about scaling CC times up with AP, Morello commented:
"Don't want to scale CC with AP at all. Might be tough for a couple characters (though they likely just scale better on HP/CDR)."


I mean seriously, what are they thinking with those support changes? The support scaling is pretty shitty, they can't do damage. What the fuck is gold going to really do to them now? You're going to be buying items now! Yay! I just gained 5% on my slow! IMPACTFUL GAMEPLAY.

I'm fine with this because support characters suck to play. They're in the same group as people who enjoy playing a healer in MMOs. Now you'll feel even more useless, except for maybe Leona as she now can become a bit tankier which is cool.

I'm all about creating a duo lane that's more about DPS/Tank, DPS/Control, DPS/Assassinate. The idea of an ADC who is farming up with another champ that just slaughters/pokes/zones the opponent is a great one. I hope that becomes the norm because it'll help me in solo queue getting stuck with support and then getting stuck with a shitty ADC that refuses to take advantage of me CCing or zoning. Now I won't feel as hopeless. Only time I enjoy playing a traditional Support is when I duo queue with a friend ADCing.

edit:
On Jungle items, Wriggles is still shitty, but now you'll be able to use two wards. Might be helpful with a counter jungler type of player. I can see Trick2g, as someone mentioned, using it with Udyr or Volibear. Armor and attack speed are great on them and both champs really don't need offensive stats to be good.

Though, Arbitrary's right that all the health returns on all the times is really low. Not sure how much that all really helps, but I do like the Spectral Wraith item though.
The really ironic thing is going to be the support role is going to wind up with all the old AP mids going support and the support characters never being picked. If a normal AP mid can get reasonable gold in the dual lane they can do most of what a support did AND throw out serious damage. You will see more things like annie/orianna/karma and probably some more tanky supports like nunu/J4/leona. This is actually a pretty sizable boost to leona overall you never picked her for damage you picked her for mass amounts of stuns/slows and now she actually can buy the gear to make her truly tanky as well she is going to be a beast.

Or for more scaryness you will probably start seeing Lux and Nid support bottom as well. With the ability to buy AP Lux is amazingly good in the support roll with her cc/shields.
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
8,425
8,194
Still convinced double relic bruiser/killlane bot is going to be a thing. Relic shield is craaaazy good, has stats big fat assholes like (health, cdr), and two of them in the same lane makes the sustain on them actually pretty legit.

Oh, and Nasus Qs are critting again, so that's a thing.
 

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,647
1,187
Still convinced double relic bruiser/killlane bot is going to be a thing. Relic shield is craaaazy good, has stats big fat assholes like (health, cdr), and two of them in the same lane makes the sustain on them actually pretty legit.

Oh, and Nasus Qs are critting again, so that's a thing.
Yup double brusier bottom is a very good possibility. Funny thing I see remade heimer also being very popular as support now. With the limited number of wards possible having three deployable turrets also acting as vision extenders makes him one of the better for prolonged vision and awareness. With the CDR one some of the new support items pretty easy to get heimer the stats he wants to go truly beast mode
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Still convinced double relic bruiser/killlane bot is going to be a thing. Relic shield is craaaazy good, has stats big fat assholes like (health, cdr), and two of them in the same lane makes the sustain on them actually pretty legit.

Oh, and Nasus Qs are critting again, so that's a thing.
Face of the Mountain + Talisman where your last hitter has the Face and the killer has the Talisman is going to be a fun thing to try. Essentially your last hitter is healing the initiator. This way the one guy is gaining passive gold and not last hitting. Send an ADC like Vayne to solo top then make your bot be something like a Garen/Udyr/J4 last hitting and your killer be someone like Rengar. Or something stupid like that.

On second though, you'll probably not use the upgraded version of Face since there are no offensive stats, and you'll just use Relic Shield like you said.
 

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,647
1,187
Damn, it just hit me how obscenely OP old Karma would have been with these support gold changes..
New karma is going to be pretty OP with the changes and finally able to actually be support again. She was not quite good enough to be a Mid pick after her rework and needs to much AP to really be a season three support. With the changes she should be able to get enough cash to do her thang in a duo bottom lane now and I would imagine she is a very popular pick going forward. Her shields are still really good and has some good cc/poke.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
30,819
87,056
All of that talk about supports could be summed up by saying "we don't actually want to see a Deathcap and a Morellonomicon on Janna or Soraka every game and really, neither do you." And they would be right. That would be some shit. The route they took though is a whole bunch of words that do nothing but make me think they know even less than I thought they did.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
30,819
87,056
That S4 Support Gold.

rrr_img_50034.jpg
 

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
14,730
31,804
New karma is going to be pretty OP with the changes and finally able to actually be support again. She was not quite good enough to be a Mid pick after her rework and needs to much AP to really be a season three support. With the changes she should be able to get enough cash to do her thang in a duo bottom lane now and I would imagine she is a very popular pick going forward. Her shields are still really good and has some good cc/poke.
Agreed, I mentioned the her old incarnation simply because her AP ratios were .7,.7,and.8 for QWE respectively. Combine her old passive with the new gold generation, and 600+ AP Karma dropping 750 HP/dmg AoE shields every six seconds would have been glorious..

How do you figure that new Karma will be able to support again? She still has no hard CC (her close range delayed root is too unreliable) and her only supportish ability is her shield which has been gutted from a ratio standpoint in exchange for the movement buff.