Malazan Book Of The Fallen

Deathwing · Apr 17, 2019

I, and probably wormie, were referring to the change in his power not the source. As his commanding officer, I'd be pretty pissed if I had a High Mage++ in my squad, holding himself back the whole time, getting his squad mates killed. Thus, the "I want to hide" reasoning sounds like more smoke screen to me.

Also, remember in the last book he

visits the Spar of the Andii, not sure what that is, and talks of Mother Dark as if he knew her personally

ver_21 · Apr 17, 2019

Deathwing said:
I, and probably wormie, were referring to the change in his power not the source. As his commanding officer, I'd be pretty pissed if I had a High Mage++ in my squad, holding himself back the whole time, getting his squad mates killed. Thus, the "I want to hide" reasoning sounds like more smoke screen to me.

Also, remember in the last book he

visits the Spar of the Andii, not sure what that is, and talks of Mother Dark as if he knew her personally

isnt the idea that he is basically motherdark's son? even that he must needs to be in order to absorb so many souls? i dont think hes under hoods command like the other bridgeburners, either--i mran he obviously not dead, but im not even sure he can be affected by the songs that ascend the bridgeburners--hes sort of already in ascended ranks

man this makes me such a malazan dork

Captain Suave · Apr 17, 2019

Hateyou said:
Yes, that’s his origin story flashback. He seemed to grow during the books which was never explained but I just assumed he was just slowly unleashing more of what he could do over the course of the books rather than actually gaining more power.

Malazan characters have comic book power levels, where they're exactly as potent as they need to be to create drama in the plot. While I fully admit it's fun to read, it's also pretty clear Erikson makes it up as he goes along without a great deal of concern for what amounts to deus ex machina.

Deathwing said:
As his commanding officer, I'd be pretty pissed if I had a High Mage++ in my squad, holding himself back the whole time, getting his squad mates killed.

No shit. "Hey look! I've secretly been a demigod all along!" Uh, ok. That might have been useful five books ago when all your friends died.

Deathwing · Apr 17, 2019

ver_21 said:
isnt the idea that he is basically motherdark's son? even that he must needs to be in order to absorb so many souls? i dont think hes under hoods command like the other bridgeburners, either--i mran he obviously not dead, but im not even sure he can be affected by the songs that ascend the bridgeburners--hes sort of already in ascended ranks

man this makes me such a malazan dork

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just never came to that conclusion when I read that passage.

Captain Suave said:
Malazan characters have comic book power levels, where they're exactly as potent as they need to be to create drama in the plot. While I fully admit it's fun to read, it's also pretty clear Erikson makes it up as he goes along without a great deal of concern for what amounts to deus ex machina.

No shit. "Hey look! I've secretly been a demigod all along!" Uh, ok. That might have been useful five books ago when all your friends died.

Characters are allowed to grow, power and otherwise, over the course of a story. For example, I had no issue from where Sin started and where she ended up. It becomes an issue, especially in comics, when characters never die.

Some of it definitely is sloppy writing though. Yedan slaughtering Soletaken Eleint just because he stumbles upon Ashbringer is how not to level up a character.

Deathwing · Apr 17, 2019

Oh, is it

soul-taken

or

so-let-akin

Captain Suave · Apr 17, 2019

Deathwing said:
Characters are allowed to grow, power and otherwise, over the course of a story.

Sure. There's a fair amount of power-creep retconning, though. Quick Ben originally had seven warrens back in the early books when ground-level humans didn't even know that Elder warrens existed, which made for a cool character concept and nice twist/reveal. Towards the end we've somehow arrived where every third squad mage has a secret Jaghut BFF and can use starvald demelain directly and Ben breaks out whatever warrens he wants.

It's not necessarily egregious on a per-character basis, but there's been quite a lot of global inflation.

I get why it happens in a story this long, and I don't really object strongly given the vague definitions of what power means in this universe anyway.

Kiroy · Apr 17, 2019

Captain Suave said:
Sure. There's a fair amount of power-creep retconning, though. Quick Ben originally had seven warrens back in the early books when ground-level humans didn't even know that Elder warrens existed, which made for a cool character concept and nice twist/reveal. Towards the end, though, we've somehow arrived where every third squad mage has a secret Jaghut BFF and can use starvald demelain directly and Ben breaks out whatever warrens he wants.

ya, the first book is practically not even cannon and was almost like a pilot episode of xyz show. I have a feeling erickson was STILL fleshing out how the world actually works in his mind in the first four or five books and it made sense that more people were powerful towards the end considering the enemies different parties were running into, just from a fleshing out the world point of view.

Even though the world had a continuing 'ruleset' evolution throughout the journey, this still goes down as the best, most mature fantasy epic series in history.

Deathwing · Apr 17, 2019

Oh, I forgot to mention Coltaine's death really hit the feels too. Not for the character itself, Coltaine is fairly one-dimensional and has a relatively small part in Deadhouse Landing. But it marks the final part of Chain of Dogs and closes the possibility of any of the 7th making it to safety aside from Duiker and his small attachment.

ver_21 · Apr 17, 2019

Deathwing said:
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just never came to that conclusion when I read that passage.

I'm definitely not sure of it. I think the book forum explanation is that

one soul is a child of mother dark and another is a child of father light, aka Draconus. Ben is sort of like the offspring of Nyx and Zeus (I guess Hemera would be more accurate, but it would be more closely incest) that never happened. The Greek connection sort of works because Nyx is the daughter of Chaos.

Superhiro · Apr 20, 2019

It's been a while, but there are also hints and plot points about how thinly stretched Ben is in dealing with the Crippled God, helping Burn, playing Shadowthrone, supporting Kalam/Fiddler/etc, so on and so forth. Taking most of book 1 with a grain of salt, I always felt Ben's powerlevel was portrayed incredibly well. His act is bluffing that he's more powerful than he actually is, but it's to hide that he is more powerful than he pretends to let on. With the concept of convergence being referenced regularly, along with his personality and operating style, it makes sense for him to try to err towards caution in using his power as much as possible.

Superhiro · Apr 20, 2019

I agree that Yedan is pretty poorly developed and just gets dropped in seemingly OP. That being said, the Hust swords were made for killing eleint, providing magical powers or whatever to the user, and the Shake are some crazy hybrid human/tiste/kchain race, it's not that much of a stretch for him to have that power level. The issue is primarily that the last few books have some rushed secondary story lines. When that happens, plus Erikson's tendency to leave most things unexplained, I can see why something like this can be written off as powercreep, but it seems like an overly simplistic critique.

Superhiro · Apr 20, 2019

Captain Suave said:
Sure. There's a fair amount of power-creep retconning, though. Quick Ben originally had seven warrens back in the early books when ground-level humans didn't even know that Elder warrens existed, which made for a cool character concept and nice twist/reveal. Towards the end we've somehow arrived where every third squad mage has a secret Jaghut BFF and can use starvald demelain directly and Ben breaks out whatever warrens he wants.

It's not necessarily egregious on a per-character basis, but there's been quite a lot of global inflation.

I get why it happens in a story this long, and I don't really object strongly given the vague definitions of what power means in this universe anyway.

The Malazan Empire mage corps are absolutely scrapping the bottom of the barrel by the time the Bonehunters are assembled. Decades of constant warfare have taken a toll, and there are hints about that scattered throughout the series. The mages that they have are basically anyone showing any aptitude, and likely the ones that would have been overlooked or dismissed earlier on. That means you get a bunch of people with seemingly random or strange powers (for the norm of Malazan warren using mage cadres).

This is one of the most understated and amazing aspects of the Malazan series. There are incredible underlying economic and geo-political currents influencing significant parts of the plot, but they are never directly explained. It's like trying to study the origins of WW1, and there's actions from 40 years before in random locations that are influencing events, and it takes an incredible amount of digging to figure it all out.

Valorath · Apr 21, 2019

Kajiimagi said:
Finished Kellenved's Reach and holy shit was it bad. It read like fan fiction. Nothing happened and when I got to the end I thought it was a joke. Don't bother paying for this POS.

Just finished this yesterday. Took me a while to read it, considering how short it is and how much I enjoy and anticipate all of the Malazan books.

In short: your analysis is spot on. I know Erikson and ICE created this world together as a form of two man DnD. What I’m curious about is how much influence Erikson has on what ICE publishes. Erikson has this awesome ten book series, and then in 300 pages ICE... did what he did in Kellanved’s Reach. Spoiler below is for Kellanved’s Reach.

The founding of the Malazan empire being so thrown together willy nilly like that just seems ridiculous. I get that Kellanved wasn’t so much focused on Empire, and more focused on Shadow, but my impression of the Malazan Empire was something more organized and structured.

Instead it’s just a collaboration of these big names all having a pow-wow and being like “yo this dude is good at military stuff so he’s the head of our military. And since Surly has claws we’ll name ours fists.” Wtf.. just seems like ICE shit on the backstory of Erikson’s work.

Maybe I just had this vision of what the founding of the Malazan empire ought to have been, and was disappointed with ICE’s portrayal. I dunno. Been working on this post both before and after dinner so thoughts may be disjointed.

I did like some of this book. I enjoyed the Greymane and Blues backstories. I’ve always really liked the Crimson Guard stuff in ICE’s work, since we get so little of them in Erikson’s stuff.

Re: Quick Ben stuff:

Quick Ben may well have the souls of both a Tiste Andii and a Tiste Liosan. I don’t recall the specifics about which warrens the mages specialized in, the mages that he got the souls of.

Main point here I wanted to make though is that Draconus is most definitely not Father Light.

Deathwing · Apr 21, 2019

Valorath said:
Just finished this yesterday. Took me a while to read it, considering how short it is and how much I enjoy and anticipate all of the Malazan books.

In short: your analysis is spot on. I know Erikson and ICE created this world together as a form of two man DnD. What I’m curious about is how much influence Erikson has on what ICE publishes. Erikson has this awesome ten book series, and then in 300 pages ICE... did what he did in Kellanved’s Reach. Spoiler below is for Kellanved’s Reach.

The founding of the Malazan empire being so thrown together willy nilly like that just seems ridiculous. I get that Kellanved wasn’t so much focused on Empire, and more focused on Shadow, but my impression of the Malazan Empire was something more organized and structured.

Instead it’s just a collaboration of these big names all having a pow-wow and being like “yo this dude is good at military stuff so he’s the head of our military. And since Surly has claws we’ll name ours fists.” Wtf.. just seems like ICE shit on the backstory of Erikson’s work.

Maybe I just had this vision of what the founding of the Malazan empire ought to have been, and was disappointed with ICE’s portrayal. I dunno. Been working on this post both before and after dinner so thoughts may be disjointed.

I did like some of this book. I enjoyed the Greymane and Blues backstories. I’ve always really liked the Crimson Guard stuff in ICE’s work, since we get so little of them in Erikson’s stuff.

Re: Quick Ben stuff:

Quick Ben may well have the souls of both a Tiste Andii and a Tiste Liosan. I don’t recall the specifics about which warrens the mages specialized in, the mages that he got the souls of.

Main point here I wanted to make though is that Draconus is most definitely not Father Light.

That wasn't Blues

Valorath · Apr 22, 2019

lol really? It's gotta be. Gregar Blueth. Fights with sticks, sorta magey.

Edit: Don't have my copy of RoTCG atm so can't go scouring. The wiki doesn't seem to have anything about him fighting with two sticks in any of the books, but for some reason that was the impression I had of him. If not Blues, then who?

Deathwing · Apr 22, 2019

Valorath said:
lol really? It's gotta be. Gregar Blueth. Fights with sticks, sorta magey.

Edit: Don't have my copy of RoTCG atm so can't go scouring. The wiki doesn't seem to have anything about him fighting with two sticks in any of the books, but for some reason that was the impression I had of him. If not Blues, then who?

I thought you were referring to Fingers. They never referred to him as Napan that I can remember.. You're probably right.

ver_21 · Apr 23, 2019

Valorath said:
Just finished this yesterday. Took me a while to read it, considering how short it is and how much I enjoy and anticipate all of the Malazan books.

In short: your analysis is spot on. I know Erikson and ICE created this world together as a form of two man DnD. What I’m curious about is how much influence Erikson has on what ICE publishes. Erikson has this awesome ten book series, and then in 300 pages ICE... did what he did in Kellanved’s Reach. Spoiler below is for Kellanved’s Reach.

The founding of the Malazan empire being so thrown together willy nilly like that just seems ridiculous. I get that Kellanved wasn’t so much focused on Empire, and more focused on Shadow, but my impression of the Malazan Empire was something more organized and structured.

Instead it’s just a collaboration of these big names all having a pow-wow and being like “yo this dude is good at military stuff so he’s the head of our military. And since Surly has claws we’ll name ours fists.” Wtf.. just seems like ICE shit on the backstory of Erikson’s work.

Maybe I just had this vision of what the founding of the Malazan empire ought to have been, and was disappointed with ICE’s portrayal. I dunno. Been working on this post both before and after dinner so thoughts may be disjointed.

I did like some of this book. I enjoyed the Greymane and Blues backstories. I’ve always really liked the Crimson Guard stuff in ICE’s work, since we get so little of them in Erikson’s stuff.

Re: Quick Ben stuff:

Quick Ben may well have the souls of both a Tiste Andii and a Tiste Liosan. I don’t recall the specifics about which warrens the mages specialized in, the mages that he got the souls of.

Main point here I wanted to make though is that Draconus is most definitely not Father Light.

ah.. Forge seems to clarify a lot

Valorath · Apr 23, 2019

Yea, Forge answers a lot of questions, and was one that I really enjoyed. Fall of Ligjt, however, I didn’t care for much. Probably need to revisit that one and see if I don’t appreciate it better on a second read, first time through i’d been looking forward to it so long it was a massive let down.

Edit: also think I read somewhere that he was going to work on the Karsa trilogy before finishing Kharakanas.

Luthair · May 11, 2019

Deathwing said:
I, and probably wormie, were referring to the change in his power not the source. As his commanding officer, I'd be pretty pissed if I had a High Mage++ in my squad, holding himself back the whole time, getting his squad mates killed. Thus, the "I want to hide" reasoning sounds like more smoke screen to me.

Also, remember in the last book he

visits the Spar of the Andii, not sure what that is, and talks of Mother Dark as if he knew her personally

Its been a while but I think they cover the idea in the books. I recall a passage where a mage is startled by something another mage (possibly Quick Ben) is doing and says something like I i should know that mage, thats the sort of power that gets noticed. The non-ascendant mages perpetually hide their power to avoid someone much more powerful taking notice and snuffing them out. Commanders go along with it because they want their ace in the hole but also understanding that someone taking notice would have collateral damage.

ver_21 · May 11, 2019

Luthair said:
Its been a while but I think they cover the idea in the books. I recall a passage where a mage is startled by something another mage (possibly Quick Ben) is doing and says something like I i should know that mage, thats the sort of power that gets noticed. The non-ascendant mages perpetually hide their power to avoid someone much more powerful taking notice and snuffing them out. Commanders go along with it because they want their ace in the hole but also understanding that someone taking notice would have collateral damage.

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