Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Gurgeh · Feb 28, 2019

I don't think the housewife has ever been the norm in history. Families used to be more extended than they are, and grand-parents, or other family member would take care of the kids while the parents would work, in an "unconfortable" environment it doesn't make much sense for a woman in her late 10's to early 30's to not "work" full time, when something like taking care of the children can be done by older people. In fact, has there ever been a period of time except the 60's and 70's during which most families would be able to live confortably on a single income ? All the females from my grand-mother generation in my family, that I know of, were working full time. We can see that in Asia, for poorer family it's a given that grand parents or other family member of the n-2 generation will take care of the kids while both parents work (a lot) and in the richer family they'll have 1 nanny for the day and 1 nanny for the night, even if the wife isn't working.

Cutlery · Feb 28, 2019

Gurgeh said:
I don't think the housewife has ever been the norm in history. Families used to be more extended than they are, and grand-parents, or other family member would take care of the kids while the parents would work, in an "unconfortable" environment it doesn't make much sense for a woman in her late 10's to early 30's to not "work" full time, when something like taking care of the children can be done by older people. In fact, has there ever been a period of time except the 60's and 70's during which most families would be able to live confortably on a single income ? All the females from my grand-mother generation in my family, that I know of, were working full time. We can see that in Asia, for poorer family it's a given that grand parents or other family member of the n-2 generation will take care of the kids while both parents work (a lot) and in the richer family they'll have 1 nanny for the day and 1 nanny for the night, even if the wife isn't working.

My grandmother never worked. My mom didn't work until we were in high school. My father and grandfather are both mechanics.

So, from 1950-1995 single income worked just fine.

Deathwing · Feb 28, 2019

We need another world war so we enjoy an extremely privileged economic status again. Destroying everyone else's factories in the name of freedom sure is great for our economy.

Hyperbole aside, we(Americans) might be looking at this from a skewed perspective.

Lenaldo · Feb 28, 2019

I think people vastly overestimate their abilities to develop a toddler into a school-ready child. It's not easy, nor is it "maternal" to raise a child to integrate into our society. I think, just like any other skill, some people are naturally good at it and can perform the role just fine. However, like most things, i think a person educated/trained in the proper skills will on average produce higher functioning children.

In the end, its such a complex topic that i find it ridiculous that people feel one way is significantly better (typically the "stay at home mom" approach) vs the other. What is most important is that each family finds the dynamic that makes their situation work the best. I think happy, loving parents produces happy children. If that is having a parent stay at home or both parents working, then so be it.

Captain Suave · Feb 28, 2019

Lenaldo said:
ridiculous that people feel one way is significantly better (typically the "stay at home mom" approach)

I live in a fairly affluent area and the modal mother stays at home and is half-drunk and on Instagram 10 hours a day instead of paying attention to their kids, who are utter barbaric shitbags through no fault of their own.

Lenaldo said:
I think happy, loving parents produces happy children.

Ding, ding. Kids model the emotional and behavioral examples provided to them. There are a lot of different ways to be well-adjusted. The most important thing is to not be resentful and distracted during your interactions, which is hard to do if your entire life is spent staring at a hairless monkey intent on killing itself and breaking everything. My wife and I have made our share of mistakes, but one thing that has served us exceptionally well is moving closer to extended family and having the kids rotate through a care cycle. That way, all the adults in their life are rested, happy to see them, and have an extra reservoir of patience to apply. It's a night and day difference compared to when it was just the two of us, both for the kids and ourselves.

Zaara · Feb 28, 2019

I was a nanny-and-daycare kid because both my parents worked full time, and I don't feel as if I missed out or grew up with a disadvantage. I had a tough time in school but that had little to nothing to do with not being proper socialised as a kid. But I can't picture myself doing the same with my own child, given my current career choice. I imagine the relative cost of day care and child rearing has skyrocketed in comparison to what it was in the mid 80s. I'm a selfish person and have a hard time parsing the idea that I'll pop out a kid, go back to work, then watch more than half my income go towards the raising of a kid I barely get to see. The idea of 'but you'll be alone when you're old' hardly seems like a good enough justification to spawn something.

Khane · Feb 28, 2019

I may just suffer from selective memory because of my stance on the matter but almost all of the women I've dated who had a stay at home mom growing up showed a distinct lack of respect for their mothers. As in calling them by their first names or being annoyed to the point of being incensed during simple conversations. The men I know who had stay at home moms don't show the same disrespect at all but I do detect a tinge of pity about the fact their moms don't have anyone to take care of anymore once they've left the house.

alavaz · Feb 28, 2019

Even though no one likes to believe it, I'd say a huge portion of how your kid turns out is completely out of your hands. My dad was a giant example of how not to be (to me) and I even remember at a distinctly young age thinking to myself that I would never be like him. When I say this, I don't mean he was abusive or anything, quite the contrary he was kind of a big hippy and I always hated his "go with the flow attitude." Again I don't mean like I literally hated the guy, there just were things about him that I knew I did not want to model my own life after.
So even though everyone likes to focus on always setting good examples, children can excel in spite of bad parenting and vice versa can be complete shitbags in spite of the best parenting.

Noodleface · Feb 28, 2019

I absolutely wanted to be the opposite of my dad, and I turned out exactly like him. 100% identical copy.

Deathwing · Feb 28, 2019

alavaz said:
Even though no one likes to believe it, I'd say a huge portion of how your kid turns out is completely out of your hands. My dad was a giant example of how not to be (to me) and I even remember at a distinctly young age thinking to myself that I would never be like him. When I say this, I don't mean he was abusive or anything, quite the contrary he was kind of a big hippy and I always hated his "go with the flow attitude." Again I don't mean like I literally hated the guy, there just were things about him that I knew I did not want to model my own life after.
So even though everyone likes to focus on always setting good examples, children can excel in spite of bad parenting and vice versa can be complete shitbags in spite of the best parenting.

My parent's obtuseness regarding religion is probably a big part as to why I'm not religious. Even after they accepted that I didn't want to go to church, they tried to portray as spending time with the family.

Otherwise, I ended up pretty much the same as my dad. We're different types of engineers but pretty similar.

Nester · Feb 28, 2019

My first child is due to arrive in June.
Its been interesting coming to terms with the fact that i am a 40 year old man child.

My wife is still a unicorn so that makes it harder. (pun intended)

yeahthatisneathuh · Feb 28, 2019

My mom was a stay-at-home mother till I was 15-16, when she became a lawyer after having really no schooling beforehand. I also thought I'd end up nothing like my dad, instead I'm a carbon copy despite thinking and trying to be nothing like that.

Any time I think "man, my parents really messed up X" I remember, they did the best they could and it was best practices at the time. Not everyone can say that their parents really tried, or even stayed together. There's a lot I could fault my parents for, but the older I get the more I respect how hard they tried, even when they messed up or me or my siblings were difficult.

Gavinmad · Feb 28, 2019

I actually turned out more like a mix of my two uncles (one on each side) which is a torturous thought because they both are/were terrible people. My paternal uncle died a few years back from neglecting his health and my maternal uncle, if he's still alive, will stop being alive if I ever see him again.

My sister, on the other hand, turned out quite a bit like my mother and my two older nieces remind me so much of my sister as a child that it's almost like time travel is involved.

Noodleface · Feb 28, 2019

My.parents spoiled my sister and she turned into one gigantic retard

Aldarion · Mar 1, 2019

I am so tired of the bullshit that single income cant support a family anymore. My dad supported so many kids on a single income, you suburban fucks would think I was shitting you if I named numbers and AGI. I'm half the man my dad is, but I've supported 3 and and a wife for about a decade.

I suspect it was no different in 1950, except that people who prioritized trinkets over family were appropriately shamed.

Two incomes is a decision, not something inevitable.

yamikazo · Mar 1, 2019

Aldarion said:
I am so tired of the bullshit that single income cant support a family anymore. My dad supported so many kids on a single income, you suburban fucks would think I was shitting you if I named numbers and AGI. I'm half the man my dad is, but I've supported 3 and and a wife for about a decade.

I suspect it was no different in 1950, except that people who prioritized trinkets over family were appropriately shamed.

Two incomes is a decision, not something inevitable.

Where do you live? What's it take to buy a home?

Noodleface · Mar 1, 2019

Aldarion said:
I am so tired of the bullshit that single income cant support a family anymore. My dad supported so many kids on a single income, you suburban fucks would think I was shitting you if I named numbers and AGI. I'm half the man my dad is, but I've supported 3 and and a wife for about a decade.

I suspect it was no different in 1950, except that people who prioritized trinkets over family were appropriately shamed.

Two incomes is a decision, not something inevitable.

Seem pretty angry about it

Zaara · Mar 1, 2019

That went from zero to retard real quick. 'Let me bust out the anecdotal example of my dad in the 19fucking50s to invalidate the concept of people struggling to live right today on one income.'' Legitimately impressive.

Big Phoenix · Mar 1, 2019

Well my friend is supporting his wife and two kids on a single salary, though he makes close to six figures.

Id say its possible outside of liberal shitholes like LA, SF, NYC etc. where the cola isnt fucking you in the ass. You arent gonna be living high on the hog but I cant see why you couldnt support a family of 3-4 on a 60-70k salary in a place like Phoenix. And of course once the kids are in school no reason why your wife cant have a job.

iannis · Mar 1, 2019

I've known a stay at home mom whose kids would have been better off if you know she hadn't been the one who was raising them.

Not that she's evil or abusive or anything. Crazy breeds crazy.

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Marriage and the Power of Divorce

Gurgeh

Silver Baronet of the Realm

Cutlery

Kill All the White People

Deathwing

Lenaldo

Golden Knight of the Realm

Captain Suave

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.

Zaara

I'm With HER ♀

Khane

Got something right about marriage

alavaz

Trakanon Raider

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick

Deathwing

Nester

Vyemm Raider

yeahthatisneathuh

Trakanon Raider

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick

Aldarion

Egg Nazi

yamikazo

Trakanon Raider

Noodleface

A Mod Real Quick

Zaara

I'm With HER ♀

Big Phoenix

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer

iannis

Musty Nester