Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

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Araxen

Golden Baronet of the Realm
10,459
7,852
I never played EQ in first person. I have no clue what you people are talking about.
 
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Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
11,897
17,867
top kek

1723489111779.png
 
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Kriptini

Vyemm Raider
3,679
3,573
Your spell book is equipped an item.

When you die it stays on your corpse.

so you can’t memorize your spells for a corpse run.

I'm not opposed to this feature if additional spellbooks can be crafted and stored in your bank. You could also do something cool like have different types of spellbooks give different stats. For example, you could have a typical leather spellbook that has no bonuses, but maybe you can loot a legendary dragonhide spellbook that gives a bonus to fire spells if you've memorized from that spellbook.
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,794
8,153
I'm not opposed to this feature if additional spellbooks can be crafted and stored in your bank. You could also do something cool like have different types of spellbooks give different stats. For example, you could have a typical leather spellbook that has no bonuses, but maybe you can loot a legendary dragonhide spellbook that gives a bonus to fire spells if you've memorized from that spellbook.

Ya that sounds like a lot of fun. Hopefully they do something like that rather than just forcing you to run to the bank just so you can sow/invis yourself for a corpse run.
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,794
8,153
Honestly, I hope that you guys just make YOUR game the way YOU want to make it.

The industry trend for the past two decades has been to make what the loudest players scream for which usually ends up being a shallow experience that nobody wants to play for the long term. Just make your game. Some people will kick, scream, and throw a hissy fit, but in the end let your game stand or fall based on YOUR decisions rather than the loud crowd.

Me personally, I think that people are going to be all uptight about the slowness of the game BECAUSE they are used to all other MMORPGs being a nitro-charged race to the finish line. They feel that they are missing out if they aren't racing through the game, so when they have to find the right vendor to get the most money for their stuff, they look at that as "OMG I am getting behind... how will I keep up with the no lifers?!!?!!!" They need to calm the fuck down and realize that this game isn't designed for racing to the end and they're not getting behind because EVERYBODY is taking that same time to get around and do things. It's a slow experience all around, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Same thing goes with the crafting. If crafting is painful, tedious, and slow, that's only a bad thing if the crafting results are similar to games like WoW where what you make is pure ass shit that is worthless five minutes later. If the results of your crafting is fucking amazing shit that you are going to keep a really long time, then it deserves to be painful, tedious, and slow to make.

I just really feel like most people coming in to this have been trained by the industry over the past two decades to RACE RACE RACE through these games and consume the content as fast as possible. They come from games like EQ where you literally pay to win with Krono (and for the most of them, THEY DO) or WoW where you literally fast track your ass through the content so you can do mind numbingly boring dailies for the rest of the year.

The industry has ruined the consumer's perception of what to expect from a MMORPG. We need a developer that is willing to reset the expectations of the consumer and ignore the MMO addicts that just want to fuck up yet another MMO for their addiction-feeding needs.

Just my 2 copeprs.

Yah they should make exactly the game they wanna make without compromise. That’s just so very romantic.

Why even have every vendor in every town? Maybe one race specializes in armor craft so they’re the only ones that accept materials that are involved! What’s a couple hours travel time? It’s the experience that counts!

And honestly who cares if you only yield 400 monthly subs if you followed your heart and the power of friendship right? At least after 5 years of development work you have all the memories you made along the way.

Financial success is over rated. What really matters is sticking to old school MMORPG values, and pushing them to the absolute limit.
 
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Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
19,249
15,633
Yah they should make exactly the game they wanna make without compromise. That’s just so very romantic.

Why even have every vendor in every town? Maybe one race specializes in armor craft so they’re the only ones that accept materials that are involved! What’s a couple hours travel time? It’s the experience that counts!

And honestly who cares if you only yield 400 monthly subs if you followed your heart and the power of friendship right? At least after 5 years of development work you have all the memories you made along the way.

Financial success is over rated. What really matters is sticking to old school MMORPG values, and pushing them to the absolute limit.
Honestly, why not just take all the worst aspects of EQ's tedium and ramp them up to 11? Imagine the dozens of players who'd be frothing at the mouth to play that kind of intriguing gameplay!
 
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Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,252
1,582
Honestly, I hope that you guys just make YOUR game the way YOU want to make it.

The industry trend for the past two decades has been to make what the loudest players scream for which usually ends up being a shallow experience that nobody wants to play for the long term. Just make your game. Some people will kick, scream, and throw a hissy fit, but in the end let your game stand or fall based on YOUR decisions rather than the loud crowd.

Me personally, I think that people are going to be all uptight about the slowness of the game BECAUSE they are used to all other MMORPGs being a nitro-charged race to the finish line. They feel that they are missing out if they aren't racing through the game, so when they have to find the right vendor to get the most money for their stuff, they look at that as "OMG I am getting behind... how will I keep up with the no lifers?!!?!!!" They need to calm the fuck down and realize that this game isn't designed for racing to the end and they're not getting behind because EVERYBODY is taking that same time to get around and do things. It's a slow experience all around, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Same thing goes with the crafting. If crafting is painful, tedious, and slow, that's only a bad thing if the crafting results are similar to games like WoW where what you make is pure ass shit that is worthless five minutes later. If the results of your crafting is fucking amazing shit that you are going to keep a really long time, then it deserves to be painful, tedious, and slow to make.

I just really feel like most people coming in to this have been trained by the industry over the past two decades to RACE RACE RACE through these games and consume the content as fast as possible. They come from games like EQ where you literally pay to win with Krono (and for the most of them, THEY DO) or WoW where you literally fast track your ass through the content so you can do mind numbingly boring dailies for the rest of the year.

The industry has ruined the consumer's perception of what to expect from a MMORPG. We need a developer that is willing to reset the expectations of the consumer and ignore the MMO addicts that just want to fuck up yet another MMO for their addiction-feeding needs.

Just my 2 copeprs.
Did you really just claim that the “MMO addicts” are actually a separate group from the people who no-life MMOs and are somehow ruining the genre for the “no-lifers?”

Do you really think ANYONE in this thread came to the MMO genre from WoW?

Bro, if you feel like a game genre should require you to no-life it around to 5 different vendors every trip to town so you can feel like you’ve somehow gained an edge and accomplished something by spending all evening tediously performing menial tasks YOU ARE THE ADDICT.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,794
8,153
Did you really just claim that the “MMO addicts” are actually a separate group from the people who no-life MMOs and are somehow ruining the genre for the “no-lifers?”

Do you really think ANYONE in this thread came to the MMO genre from WoW?

Bro, if you feel like a game genre should require you to no-life it around to 5 different vendors every trip to town so you can feel like you’ve somehow gained an edge and accomplished something by spending all evening tediously performing menial tasks YOU ARE THE ADDICT.

Ya i found that take a bit odd to say the least.

Like I’ve only ever played a few MMOs in earnest (EQ, EQOA, EQ2, pre-TBC WoW, Vanguard, and GW2) and havent even really touched one other than p99 in the last 11 years or so.

I think there’s a lot of space to occupy on the spectrum between Dungeon-Finder Lobby games and having to retrieve your backup spell book from a bank before a corpse run.
 

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
<Gold Donor>
42,755
109,151
I think he just meant that we have been conditioned for 20 years now to expect the varying levels of QOL and "casualness" of systems that WOW introduced.
 
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Control

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
3,056
8,054
Ya i found that take a bit odd to say the least.

Like I’ve only ever played a few MMOs in earnest (EQ, EQOA, EQ2, pre-TBC WoW, Vanguard, and GW2) and havent even really touched one other than p99 in the last 11 years or so.

I think there’s a lot of space to occupy on the spectrum between Dungeon-Finder Lobby games and having to retrieve your backup spell book from a bank before a corpse run.
I think a lot of what's getting brought up might sound bad, but it's really all about the tuning and implementation. I haven't tried it so I how no opinion on what's actually been done, but I can imagine reasonable reasons/justification for everything I've seen mentioned.

Also, it was always bullshit that melee were useless on a corpse run but monks/casters were still gtg. :p Dropping your spellbook sounds unpleasant but fair, so long as spells and gear are similarly replaceable/substitutable.
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,794
8,153
I think he just meant that we have been conditioned for 20 years now to expect the varying levels of QOL and "casualness" of systems that WOW introduced.

Yeah so pretty much the same thing we’ve all read since they added The Nexus in Luclin? I’d like to think discourse here on that particular topic has gotten a bit more advanced than that over the last two decades.

There have been QOL systems introduced over the years that have reduced player sense of accomplishment, and reduced interdependence and communication, hampering relationship building. Absolutely. Nobody is asking for a mini-map or a LFG tool in Monsters and Memories. What does having to make a bank run before a corpse run do to make the game feel more challenging? What does item specific vendors do to increase player connectivity?

I believe if there are tedious systems in place that neither increase sense of accomplishment, or increase interdependence, then the only thing they’ll achieve is downward pressure on player retention. That should be opposite of the team’s goal here.

It was referred to as EverCrack for a reason.
 
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Kithani

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,252
1,582
I think a lot of what's getting brought up might sound bad, but it's really all about the tuning and implementation. I haven't tried it so I how no opinion on what's actually been done, but I can imagine reasonable reasons/justification for everything I've seen mentioned.

Also, it was always bullshit that melee were useless on a corpse run but monks/casters were still gtg. :p Dropping your spellbook sounds unpleasant but fair, so long as spells and gear are similarly replaceable/substitutable.
“It was always bullshit melee were useless on a corpse run” and you people seriously think the solution is “let’s just make every class useless on a corpse run!”

Oh wait I thought you nerds didn’t like class homogenization what are you a bunch of carebears from WOW?!
 
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TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
<Gold Donor>
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Only casters being able to bind outside of cities without a nearly one of a kind rare item from a super inaccessible zone is not something that needs to be repeated.

Let casters be able to bind themselves but let them bind anyone wherever they want.

Punching the other 50% of classes in the dick just because they had the audacity to have spells and didn't strictly need gear to do the bare minimum seems a bit much.
 
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Szeth

Trakanon Raider
2,239
1,041
Rogues and Monks were awesome in corpse runs. Even Bards were fine. Really just warriors, paladins, rangers that sucked.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,630
41,533
Corpse runs with full loot drops are dumb anyway. Either it's "realistic" and you have permadeath or it's just a game and why do you need stupid concepts that just waste time. AC did it much better with death items, quest items being bound mattering, and stuff like that.
 
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Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,794
8,153
Corpse runs with full loot drops are dumb anyway. Either it's "realistic" and you have permadeath or it's just a game and why do you need stupid concepts that just waste time. AC did it much better with death items, quest items being bound mattering, and stuff like that.

Ok let’s not go crazy. The anxiety of a potential corpse run is very important.
 

Kharzette

Watcher of Overs
5,347
4,079
I'll bet you remember that moment. Dead at bind, sitting down to scribe spells and ... there aren't any :emoji_laughing:

If you have questions though, go to Shawn's stream when he's on and ask him about it. He's good at explaining stuff.
 
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Control

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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8,054
“It was always bullshit melee were useless on a corpse run” and you people seriously think the solution is “let’s just make every class useless on a corpse run!”

Oh wait I thought you nerds didn’t like class homogenization what are you a bunch of carebears from WOW?!
Whether or not you should have corpse runs at all is one question. Whether you should treat your classes similarly during one is another.

Just think of it as a game with loot-permadeath, but when you die, you get a dynamic quest with the potential for amazing loot! :)

(It is actually dynamic content though. You force your players into a potentially time consuming and highly difficult task they don't want, but that can serve as bonding/cooperation for the group and adds actual bite to the risk/reward thing. It's self-induced hazing, but it can serve a purpose. When was the last time you played a game where you were literally afraid to go somewhere? Do I want to play a game like that now? Probably not... but I understand.)
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,630
41,533
Ok let’s not go crazy. The anxiety of a potential corpse run is very important.
TBH, disagree. It's not 1999 anymore. I think it's fine to make death that impactful only when the game isn't super rng and structured properly. If you're going to have the sort of old school hijinks like chaotic pulling mechanics, trains, wacky threat tables, etc. then that just doesn't make sense to me. I think there's a better balance if dying sets you back in the content not potentially ruins your night/week/forever on a character because of a lag spike.

It's the same with having no vendors or painfully small bag space but everything stops piles of trash items.
 

Fogel

Mr. Poopybutthole
13,168
52,222
Corpse runs sucked, but they did two things that separated WoW from EQ for me.

1. They added that layer of danger/suspense that you always had to be on guard or your dungeon run would hit a major speed bump
2. They helped foster a community as people had to develop friends/relationships. Where as WoW's instancing and Ghost mechanic removed all that. You only ever needed your guild for raids

I was a paladin in EQ and loved knowing that I just saved someones day because I was running through Lguk to solo some stuff and found a dead person/camp and rez'd them all so they didn't have to run/rebreak. Those are the kinds of interactions that build friends/community that WoW removed. Now corpse runs don't need to be full EQ dick punch, but WoW went too far in the other direction
 
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