MTG thread

Rally on its own is fine. Rally + Collected Company doubles your ability to hit a value spell. Throw Jace in the mix, and you've effectively got 16 chances to go off in the deck. I doubt they even bothered to look at 4 color decks in FFL that much since it seems so wacky, but that's what the mana base has led to. You CAN'T have a stable fetchland base in standard without splashing into fourth colors, so why not go ahead and do it?

They're not going to find those weird interactions because so many things had to go right for it to work. Rally looked like a goofy combo to start with, and people initially tried lots of 2 color versions with sac outlets before realizing they could just splash all the best graveyard interactions. Reflector Mage is what put it over the top.

Oh yeah, I forgot, they missed 4-colour and 5-colour manabases too But yeah, Rally just has so many ways of getting ahead, it is the best deck in the format saved by the fact that most people who pilot it suck. Regarding mono-black devotion, what was missed was the Mutavault + Thoughtseize + Pack Rat package. Oh and Lifebane Zombie was stupid too given that it was an automatic two for one against every green and white deck in the format.

Having worked in CCG/LCG playtest/design at multiple companies, a lot of shit that seems obvious in hindsight is overlooked in testing. Often because of testing directives/conceits that push towards focusing on other things in order to meet your job requirements. And sometimes they're caught by one person in a proto-form, but that form isn't considered abusive enough to be a worry. Then, it gets released into the pool of thousands of competitive players, has its optimal form found, and starts breaking spines.

For an example I encountered after joining AEG and getting access to their previous PT forum posts, in Legend of the Five Rings Playtest, they made a starts-in-play card that let you cast spells from any player's graveyard, but any spells you cast (graveyard or no) get exiled after casting. The folks on playtest were directed to test whether this card made a millstone deck too strong, because it would get to play all of its opponent's spells omg! So, they completely missed that a burn deck playing Wheel of Fortune-style effects is basically just an unstoppable murder machine with it, since discarded spells weren't exiled.

Sounds like Yawgmoth's Will. AKA draw 7, make 3 mana, add 5 storm count, draw your win con.

Xalara_sl said:

Oh yeah, I forgot, they missed 4-colour and 5-colour manabases too But yeah, Rally just has so many ways of getting ahead, it is the best deck in the format saved by the fact that most people who pilot it suck. Regarding mono-black devotion, what was missed was the Mutavault + Thoughtseize + Pack Rat package. Oh and Lifebane Zombie was stupid too given that it was an automatic two for one against every green and white deck in the format.

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Lifebane was made to keep thragtusk in check. Once Thragtusk rotated, lifebane kept G/W decks down for awhile, but it wasn't even getting played all that much in mono b after a little bit. Everyone missed pack rat in constructed for a long time.. If it takes the general public more then 3 months to figure out a card is good, can't really blame WotC for that. Without pack rat, mono b would have been a much weaker deck.
I also don't see why you think they missed 3-5 color manabases. It's pretty obvious that was the intent by giving the battlelands the land types in standard with fetches. Their best selling sets/standard formats, have been when people can play many colors. Casuals love multicolor decks. But, if they do it every set, it gets stale, so they rotate the ability to play 3+ colors around to keep it fresh.

The point I'm making is that there will always be a best deck, there's nothing they can ever do about that. We are saying they 'missed' Rally as if it's broken, but it's only become the 'best' deck since Oath came out. I don't see it winning every tournament, and if it starts to be more then 30% of the field consistently, we will see anti-rally decks. They have never said their design process is meant to balance every card perfectly against others. There will always be very powerful cards/decks, but they try to put the tools to fight those strategies into the format as well. If it takes over, there should be ways to bring it down.


That's about as balanced as they can possibly make it. If it wasn't rally, it'd be something else. Just cause a deck is good, doesn't mean that WotC missed that deck/card at all.

Rally is strong but we're already seeing it getting attacked by BR Dragons. Standard typically seesaws around from week to week. The Eldrazi scourge in Modern looks to be the real old school definition of 'broken' to me.

* Pack Rat wasn't the problem, it was the combination of Pack Rat, Mutavault, and Thoughtseize that made it a problem and is something I was told they should have caught, but didn't because they slacked on testing Theros compared to other sets.
* I spoke to Mark Rosewater at PAX, he specifically said that battlelands were designed to discourage 4C and 5C manabases.
* The only reason Lifebane stopped seeing as much play as it did was because, between it and Tidebinder Mage, there were very few green and white decks left in the meta.

The problem is not that WotC misses stuff, it's that they don't really test at all.

Well, I'm sorry, but you haven't convinced me at all that's the case. There's too many decklists and stories written about their FFL that gets released later, that they are obviously doing testing. They will never have the manpower to create optimal lists of everything the way the millions of players do. A specific employee might have the opinion that they didn't test a certain format enough, but that doesn't mean it's complete fact.

It's almost universally agreed that magic has gotten healthier and more balanced as it's gone on, at least from people who have played it long enough to know what it used to be like. The 'worst' standard we have had recently, with mono-black, mono blue and U/W control still was WAY more balanced then the formats that were dominated by necro, tolarian academy, psychatog, madness, affinity, faeries, etc.. mono black kept creeping back into the spotlight, but things like R/W burn could keep it in check whenever it got too big. You also had decks like hexproof, G/r devo, and B/w midrange that all had their weekends as the best positioned deck as well. I quite enjoyed that standard format, honestly. It felt very healthy. Anytime mono black got too big, it was easy to beat it if you tried. ex: that B/W deck I mentioned before that I played anytime it did.

In olden days, you played the dominant deck (faeries) or anti-dominant deck. That was it. Cause WotC hadn't tested bitterblossom with the faerie shell, they changed it from making 1/1 rogues to 1/1 faerie rogues at the last minute as it had been 'too weak' and never tried it with the other faerie cards. Their faerie decks in FFL were mostly mono-blue, or tricksy creature decks, not the tempo control deck that absolutely crushed standard for months until 5c control became possible with new sets.

They've since basically stopped changing cards last minute like that without some amount of testing. They also make sure there are tools to fight that strategy, even if their testing shows it to not be very good, just in case they are wrong.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

The solution is to really leverage MTGO but they will never do it.

The day a new set comes out you put the next set on MTGO in an invite only beta area. You invite pros and other people with enough points or something and give them all cards for free in that area. You let them playtest to their heart's content and you log the interaction. Solved.

EDIT: They are too worried about spoiling their hamfisted "story" to actually focus on the game first.

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Their FFL is a year or more in advance. Being 1 set out is way too late as it's pretty much set in stone at that point.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

EDIT: They are too worried about spoiling their hamfisted "story" to actually focus on the game first.

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:eyeroll:

To your other point, they already can't stop leaks. I don't think inviting pros to early access beta test would help at all. It's like the Judge program is already a giant clusterfuck, let's add unpaid testers to the mix?

enzie_sl said:

WAY more balanced then the formats that were dominated by necro, tolarian academy, psychatog

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I would so rather play any of those eras than current standard, but I'm weird.

My favorite standard of late was INN-RTR. That one was pretty fun, but standard ever since has been hit or miss. Honestly, it concerns me less than having a well supported, fun, non-rotating format. Modern prior to Khans and Siege Rhino was a blast. Ever since, it has been one misstep after another.

Sometimes I wish WotC would just give up and print FTV: Power 9 so I could play Vintage more consistently. It's not snobbery. I just really do think it's more fun. It reminds me of kitchen table magic when I was a kid.

Wouldn't you need FTV: Dual Lands & Shops as well?

Drtyrm_sl said:

Wouldn't you need FTV: Dual Lands & Shops as well?

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Was an off the cuff comment, but Shops and Bazaar are vital to specific archetypes, yeah. I usually play big blue and tend to overlook them.

Heylel_sl said:

I would so rather play any of those eras than current standard, but I'm weird.

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Nah, I get it. I have fond memories of black summer and combo winter, but that's more nostalgia then anything. I was just a kid and the whole competitive scene was like a mystical fantasy land. Plus, if you played the best deck back then, there was still a ton of people who didn't know about it. Info wasn't as widespread, so if you were teched out for the mirror you had a huge advantage on the field.

But, even in later formats when I was older, I loved faeries. I just like being able to do everything at instant speed, and it wasn't a pure control deck that took forever to win. I like when there is one dominant deck, because I either master playing it or find something that beats it.

I've found it's generally the less skilled brewers that complain the most about formats being 'stale' because their little brew can't stand up to the best deck. Or, casual players who can't afford to put together the best deck as all the cards are expensive now. All the good players I've met at Opens/GPs don't mind there being a dominant deck for extended periods of time.

I agree. I think that's modern's problem, honestly. People want a reasonably stable, slow changing format in which several interactive decks and a few linear ones are all more or less equally viable. The problem right now is that the threats are exponentially more powerful than the answers. In legacy, Force of Will is there to police the format, and it's got deputies Daze and Misdirection with it. While I recognize the arguments that legacy is too blue heavy have merit, you've at least got a firm "no" available to keep the really broken stuff in line.

Modern needs that. WotC has to find a way to get some reasonably effective turn 1-3 hate into the format that doesn't overbalance the tempo decks. Also, it needs to either stop printing powerful non-basic lands entirely, or give the format something stronger than Ghost Quarter to combat land strategies. Summer Bloom could have remained legal had there been a more effective answer to that card than Ghost Quarter. Shit, I'm pretty sure something as simple as Ankh of Mishra would have been so powerful vs Bloom that the entire deck could have been left as is.

I think people will find Eldrazi's weakness soon enough, but it still doesn't help the fact that every tier 1 modern deck is just racing past all of the others. There's no interaction. Modern is the basketball of Magic. It's all offense.

Actual Counterspell would be a good step. As for Eye of Ugin, we'll see how the deck holds up over some time before anything drastic happens.

Sterling_sl said:

Actual Counterspell would be a good step.

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Dear lord yes. They're just worried about combo decks protecting themselves, but Pact already does that pretty handily.

I would actually like to see a counter that is kindof a reverse Might of Old Krosa. UU on your opponent's turn, 2UU on yours. Something like that. Good for defending yourself, bad for defending a combo.

Also Flusterstorm should be a thing in modern. I don't know why it isn't already.

Heylel_sl said:

Dear lord yes. They're just worried about combo decks protecting themselves, but Pact already does that pretty handily.

I would actually like to see a counter that is kindof a reverse Might of Old Krosa. UU on your opponent's turn, 2UU on yours. Something like that. Good for defending yourself, bad for defending a combo.

Also Flusterstorm should be a thing in modern. I don't know why it isn't already.

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We've had Thoughtseize and Lightning Bolt in Standard during somewhat recent years. Could fit counterspell into Standard at some point when there isn't a lot of other good counter magic around to prevent too much butthurt. This would be good for modern.