MTG thread

Lusiphur

Peasant
595
47
While there's merit to the "just play 4" argument, it is somewhat outdated deck design (for main decks). A lot of very good deck builders like Sam Black will tell you that running 1s and 2s of different cards isn't really a problem. It's all about the probability of drawing it by the turn you'd want it, and how much it detracts from your main strategy. Even a 1-of card is worth having if it's the only answer you have to a corner case scenario that you cannot win. If you look at a lot of top decks from the last rotation, you'll often find things like 1 of a given utility land, or a mix of 1 and 2 copies of various removal.

Where you're 100% right is in sideboarding strategy. A sideboard full of 2 copies of a bunch of cards that answer specific problems with your deck that aren't addressed in the main board is almost worse than nothing at all, and speaks to flaws in the design itself. You want to pack your sideboard with cards that are either absolutely vital to surviving a given deck (ie. ways to break combos in Modern) or more powerful in a given matchup than your main deck. You want the things you put in to actually be stronger than what you take out, and that's pretty much impossible with pairs of cards shoved into the gaps in your main strategy. Often, the sideboarded deck just ends up weaker anyway, and you're better off not having it. It's part of learning how to sideboard properly.

For black in Theros, I really don't see any reason not to play 4x Thoughtseize all the time simply because it is black's most powerful card and it is a universal answer. There's very little downside, and in the rare situations where the card is a bad matchup (vs. some aggro, for instance), you can make them the first thing you side out for cards that work better vs. your opponent.
HT, you kind of disagreed with me while agreeing with me. I specifically said sure, play 1 and 2 of if you are tutoring or thinning out somehow but the odds of having Abrupt Decay from a one and 2 of deck just when you need it are pretty low. If it is just a useful filler because you only have 2 of a fatty or something then fine, otherwise sideboard it or main deck 4.
 

Xalara

Golden Squire
826
81
You cannot get around the fetches and you want all 8. It's not just for the mana fixing as you will end up pulling mountains with them, its for thinning out the deck and feeding DRS/Grim Lavamancer if you use them. You want to be consistently topdecking more heat. I have won games with one land on the board.
Sacred Foundry/Blood Crypt/And the red green one which I am too lazy to look up can be run with 2/2/1 (if used), so that will save you some money.
Yeah I figured as much. Having to get only four Arid Mesas and four Scalding Tarns is a much better way into Modern than say pod which requires a significantly more expensive mana base. The bright side of things is I just conpleted my set of shocklands via trading so that is an expense I dont have to worry about. Thank you again
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Heylel

Trakanon Raider
3,602
430
Uh, Pod's mana base basically IS 8-10 fetches if you already have shocklands. They're the most expensive part of the deck. Well, that and Chord of Callings.

Also Lusiphur, I do agree in general terms. What I was trying to point out is that the # of a card is relative to when you need it. If you need a turn 1 Thoughtseize, play 4 Thoughtseize. Abrupt Decay is a bad example because of the cmc limitation. You run it alongside other, broader removal like Putrefy (or in a format like Modern, you just run 2 because all the threats are 3 or less anyway and it's great late game).

If you don't actually need a card until turn 5 or 6, you're probably fine running 2-3. 3 is better, but sometimes space won't allow it. By then you've drawn at least a dozen cards, so your chances of seeing it improve. Even control decks don't always run 3 Verdicts, and they live or die by finding it on turn 4 by digging for it and stalling the board. It's a matter of ratios to seeing it in your opening hand. Personally, I don't want to see a Verdict in my opening 7. It's fine if it's there, but in a perfect world I'd rather just draw it on turn 3.

Btw, mathematically speaking the deck thinning from fetches is nominal. Thawing Glaciers was incredibly powerful, sure, but fetches are more about perfect mana fixing and feeding Deathrite Shaman / Knight of the Reliquary. It does provide fractionally improved draws, so that makes them an obvious tournament addition beyond the already significant upsides.
 

Lusiphur

Peasant
595
47
Btw, mathematically speaking the deck thinning from fetches is nominal. Thawing Glaciers was incredibly powerful, sure, but fetches are more about perfect mana fixing and feeding Deathrite Shaman / Knight of the Reliquary. It does provide fractionally improved draws, so that makes them an obvious tournament addition beyond the already significant upsides.
Not being difficult HT, this has been a fun little debate
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Differing perspectives and that. However, in burn the deck thinning is relatively important as burn runs with 18-19 lands as opposed to everything else's 22-24 (in Modern). Drawing a land with burn is just uggh. Every little helps and all that.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
19,248
-9,863
Rule of thumb I follow is:
4 = You want it in your opening hand.
3 = You want to draw it every game.
2 = You want to draw it in a long game to end it.
1 = You have a tutor spell for this.

I also look at how a card plays in multiples (for aggro), if drawing 2-3 is going to be a problem then I'll only run 3 as long as there are comparable threats to replace it with.
Finally niche spells which there are multiple of and I'm not sure which I'll need I'll run 2 of each with the rest in sideboard if possible, for example the various spells to counter removal (Do I want 4 of Protection from Colour or 4 of Indestructibility? I don't know yet, so split the risk.)
 

Heylel

Trakanon Raider
3,602
430
Yeah, not saying they aren't important for burn. It's especially true when running Grim Lavamancer. I wouldn't try to build any modern deck without fetches except maybe Tron, and honestly if I'm dropping a C note on a set of Burnwillow Groves, I'd rather just put that money into fetches that work in a larger variety of decks.

Burnwillows are what are pushing me towards U tron instead of RG Tron right now. I really don't want to spend the money on those, but then again I want them for 4-Color Loam in Legacy eventually. We'll see how trading at the open goes this weekend. I've got a couple thousand in my trade binder to swap around, so I'm hoping to leave with some decent upgrades. I *should* have enough bulk to trade in for a set of Confidants, which I've wanted for a while now. I'm still trying to pinpoint a list of targets aside from that. I need a least 1 Vendilion Clique, and several smaller cards I don't want to spend cash on for EDH, but in terms of modern staples the big things I'm missing are 8 more fetches (which I don't want to buy this high) and Tarmogoyfs (also too high for what it does).
 

Enzee

Trakanon Raider
2,197
715
He's got 2 putrefy and 2 abrupt decay, they are functionally similar enough that he's effectively running 4 'removal'. His numbers are fine in that aspect, for now.. I have a feeling we'll all be running more enchantment/artifact removal after Theros and those two spells are very versatile.
If you are already playing B/G, I bet most decks start running 5+ between putrefy and abrupt decay once some decks start popping up using all the new enchantment creatures and such.
 

Xalara

Golden Squire
826
81
Pod does have lots of fetches but it has some of the more expensive ones. The decklist I was looking at also had Grove of the Burnwillows. All of this puts the manabase of the deck around $200ish more expensive than the burn list above.
 

Heylel

Trakanon Raider
3,602
430
Almost picked up a Taiga tonight just for trade bait. I'm sitting on a pile of Unhinged lands a friend really wants. Told him I'd sleep on it, 20 lands for a Vendi Clique and the Taiga (NM). I'm leaning heavily in favor of it, but I also know I'm headed to the Open on Saturday and people go absolutely batshit for old full art lands. It's mostly a matter of audience. There's a lot more folks who'd be interested in them than a Taiga for legacy, but at the same time I'm making some cash on it.

Decisions, decisions.
 

Strossus

Silver Knight of the Realm
253
35
i need to get to a larger pool of traders, im sitting on some modern/legacy stuff that i want to turn into duals/ foil EDH stuff
 

Heylel

Trakanon Raider
3,602
430
Head to a big tournament. There's always folks there looking to flip cards. That's pretty much my only goal this Saturday, since I'm not wasting my $40 entry fee given my recent record. I've had very little practice this month, and even my casual matches are pretty shitty.
 

Enzee

Trakanon Raider
2,197
715
What, no posts about the rest of the set got spoiled through the MTGO beta?

Haven't had enough time to sit down and really evaluate each color for limited yet. White was looking very good for the prerelease, considering the promo card you get, but not completely sure now. Heroic and combat tricks verus control + monsters looks like the main archtypes. The cantrip enchantments really help out the heroic and devotion mechanics. Even super aggro decks get a fair amount of scry and card draw to smooth out draws all game, which is nice.
 

Chris

Potato del Grande
19,248
-9,863
I'm trying heroic out on Cockatrice and it seems difficult to run enough creatures and spells at the same time to have a viable deckandtrigger heroic. I've cut down from 4 to 2 Heroic cards in my white weenies test deck.

Everything seems a little awkward right now.
 

Mahes

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
5,081
5,989
The Whip of Erobos does a good job of changing the game with 3 in a deck. I have play tested with it and found it to be a pain for the opposition if they cannot answer it. Giving lifelink to every creature you control and being able to resurrect the ones that have died even temporarily is very powerful. I also love Thoughtseize. That card works beautifully with the lotleth troll. Being able to remove their removal and know how long you have, so as to properly pump up the troll, will win many games.
 

Xalara

Golden Squire
826
81
The Whip of Erobos does a good job of changing the game with 3 in a deck. I have play tested with it and found it to be a pain for the opposition if they cannot answer it. Giving lifelink to every creature you control and being able to resurrect the ones that have died even temporarily is very powerful. I also love Thoughtseize. That card works beautifully with the lotleth troll. Being able to remove their removal and know how long you have, so as to properly pump up the troll, will win many games.
Wait, if I discard a creature card from their hand that'll trigger Lotleth?
 

Wuyley_sl

shitlord
1,443
13
Nope, you have to be the one to discard the card. I think he means you discard the creature from your hand, pump him up and then reanimate the creature you discarded for a turn with whip. Easy way to get huge ETB creatures likeAshen Riderinto play and abuse them. 2BB for a vindicate that exiles (or 2 if you get creative) in standard? Yes please.
 

Heylel

Trakanon Raider
3,602
430
Went to the SCG Open today to do some trading. Ended up with a very respectable amount of trade in, so I started the push towards building a Legacy deck. I really like 4 Color Loam, so I'm aiming towards that. Managed to pick up the Dark Confidants, Mox Diamonds, most of the Wastelands, and a handful of other cards towards it. The dual lands are really going to suck, but I think I can probably manage them. Also coincidentally picked up nearly all of MonoU Tron, and finished up my Venser EDH deck. All in all not a bad afternoon.

Unfortunately none of my buddies did very well in the Open, and everyone kinda had their dick in the dirt by 6 or so when I left. Even my friend who plays a lot of Legacy was having a bad time of it. Normally he does really well, then today in the Legacy trial he got matched round 1 vs. Charbelcher and his opponent managed a turn 1 kill both games. Shit happens I guess.
 

Vilgan_sl

shitlord
259
1
Heroic seems too gimmicky for me, but some other interesting things going on. WotC R&D seems determined to get black some love. Tough to evaluate before any decks are made, but that whip seems pretty insane.
 

Mahes

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
5,081
5,989
Wait, if I discard a creature card from their hand that'll trigger Lotleth?
No, as stated already. What makes the Seize/Lotleth combo so powerful is this.

Turn 1 : Thoughtseize. Does the player have a kill creature spell in their hand? If so, remove it. If they no longer have a chance of dealing with a creature directly then..
Turn 2 : Play Troll. Yes they might had drawn a way to deal with him at this point, but the odds are strongly in favor that they did not. Having the troll out 2nd turn is a huge advantage if you have creatures in your hand. If they did have another kill spell, at least you know of it's existence and so you can hold the troll for turn 3.
Turn 3 : Pump him up and hold mana for regeneration. At this stage you are well ahead of the game.

The whip comes later if things get a little out of hand.