NBA 2013?14 Season

Slaythe

Slaythe

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Ambiturner_sl said:
He'd still be good, but not great and not worth a max contract
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Well whatever. He's an ok man defender. He's not athletic enough to block shots or do any weak side help. He's not a "turnstile" and certainly not a player you pass on because he's not an elite defender. Dude is easily a top 10 player in the league and I'd argue top 5 (in that tier with Paul George that's outside of LeBron, Durant and CP3). He's a shithead and I don't really like rooting for him but you can't look at the numbers he puts up and deny the offensive gifts he has. And man/weakside defensive ability aside, defensive rebounds end posessions. They're a big part of team defense.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Love is already making the max salary he can per year. He just didn't get the 5th year.
 
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MAXPOWERS_sl

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He's a stretch 4 that doesn't really bang in the post. I'll grant you that he's a great scoring big man (poor mans Dirk) but his rebound numbers are inflated BECAUSE he doesn't play defense. A lot of his rebounds are uncontested, I'd hardly call him a great rebounder simply because his numbers are high. Saying his the team allows less points when he is on the floor means nothing when your replacement is Dante Cunningham. If you're going to pay Love max contract money then you better be willing to dish out another high salary contract for a top post defender (Hibbert, Noah)
 
Araxen

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MAXPOWERS_sl said:
He's a stretch 4 that doesn't really bang in the post. I'll grant you that he's a great scoring big man (poor mans Dirk) but his rebound numbers are inflated BECAUSE he doesn't play defense. A lot of his rebounds are uncontested, I'd hardly call him a great rebounder simply because his numbers are high. Saying his the team allows less points when he is on the floor means nothing when your replacement is Dante Cunningham. If you're going to pay Love max contract money then you better be willing to dish out another high salary contract for a top post defender (Hibbert, Noah)
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We have Zangief who isn't that great defensively either but he's an awesome Center. It's part of the problem with the team. Both are good players but both aren't that great defensively and it can hurt the team.

Personally I believe if the Wolves get a good trade offer for Love I think they have to entertain it. Dude is going to bolt ASAP.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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MAXPOWERS_sl said:
He's a stretch 4 that doesn't really bang in the post. I'll grant you that he's a great scoring big man (poor mans Dirk) but his rebound numbers are inflated BECAUSE he doesn't play defense. A lot of his rebounds are uncontested, I'd hardly call him a great rebounder simply because his numbers are high. Saying his the team allows less points when he is on the floor means nothing when your replacement is Dante Cunningham. If you're going to pay Love max contract money then you better be willing to dish out another high salary contract for a top post defender (Hibbert, Noah)
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Can I ask how much of Love you've actually watched? I mean, maybe it's a lot, I don't know. But a lot of this, to me, seems like criticism people had about his game when he entered the league but isnt really true anymore. I mean, let's just look at offensive rebounds. That completely removes this "he gets rebounds because he looks for them rather than playing defense" idea.

Dude averages 4 a game on his career. The 3.5 this year (despite taking nearly a 1/3rd of his shots from behind the arc) puts him 9th in the league. In 2011 he lead the league in this category with 4.5. In 2012 he was second with 4.1. Last year he played 18 games we won't count that.

Is he not a great rebounder still? Because it looks to me like he's an absolutely elite offensive rebounder and you could probably extrapolate his defensive rebounding abilities from the same argument.

I don't want to say what you're proposing doesn't happen. I've seen it live. Especially 3 years ago when he was going for that double/double streak. Dude would look for boards. And he'd shrug away any teammate that "stole" a rebound from him. I don't know if you actually trust any of my opinions here, but if you do at all, I can say that after watching essentially every game Love has played, he isn't this stats driven player anymore. He was, three years ago when the team was awful and he was the only bright spot on the team. I haven't felt that he's gone after stats for himself whatsoever this year. He's still an entitled prick and he still bitches to the refs way too much (although Adelman has gotten him to calm on this a tad too), but I really think he's just trying to win games now. And regardless I don't see how someone could be such a terrific offensive rebounder but have his numbers be otherwise entirely inflated.
 
Djay

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In the game against Phoenix I saw him complaining on the offensive end of the court giving the other team a 5-on-4 for, like, 10 seconds before they travelled. And he had a foul on a jump ball, then waived off the official getting a tech. I'm not saying he's a bad player by any means, but that type of behavior worries me. Maybe he was just having a bad night? I've caught quite a few TWolves games this year (mostly in the background while I'm on the computer) and haven't noticed that stuff much, but I also wasn't really looking for it.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Djay_sl said:
In the game against Phoenix I saw him complaining on the offensive end of the court giving the other team a 5-on-4 for, like, 10 seconds before they travelled. And he had a foul on a jump ball, then waived off the official getting a tech. I'm not saying he's a bad player by any means, but that type of behavior worries me. Maybe he was just having a bad night? I've caught quite a few TWolves games this year (mostly in the background while I'm on the computer) and haven't noticed that stuff much, but I also wasn't really looking for it.
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This game was a rough one. He totally blasted a couple teammates afterwards. A lot of people up here think that night will be a fork in the road for this team. Either they rally together and push toward the playoffs or this all falls apart right now.

Don't get me wrong, he still bitchesa lotand if he wasn't on the Wolves and wasn't as good as he is I would really, really dislike him. Shit, I already really don't like him. I just can't deny the talent and I'm completely opposed to trading him because you're just not going to get anywhere close to equal value. All I can do is cross my fingers that in a year when they offer him a full max contract he takes it because of the extra 20 million or whatever he'll make from the extra year we can offer.

I don't trust Flip to actually do it, but Love is good enough to build around and make a playoff team out of. He really is. Is he that top 3 superstar carry you to a championship guy? Probably not, but I do really think he's in that Paul George "2nd tier" superstar group of really great players. And Indiana is the perfect example of showing what you can do with one of those guys and a lot of productive role players around him. Does Indiana win a championship that way? Who knows. Maybe not, but at least they'll be fun to watch for an extended period of time.

Long story short, Love is a shitheel but really good. And when building a team I'll take talent over anything.
 
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MAXPOWERS_sl

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I may be biased as an Indy sports fan but Love doesn't belong in the PG tier. PG may not be as consistent a scorer (yet, he's 23) as Love but he affects the game at both ends of the floor. Saying he is playing with "productive role players" is wrong. The capital T Truth is that Roy Hibbert is much more important to the team than PG and as the best defensive center in the game, and possibly the biggest game changer on the defensive end, he is well beyond a role player. You can't build around Love simply because he is a terrible leader and a "me first" guy. If you follow the Pacers, like I do, you would realize that part of the reason they're playing like an elite team is because of their chemistry and team first attitude.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Here's the thing about the offense vs defense discussion. Those things don't exist in equal weighted vacuums. PG plays offense AND defense. Love just plays offense. Therefore 2 > 1 and George is better. That isn't how this works. Love is so much more polished offensively that it makes up for his defensive limitations. Is he a good defender? No, not really. Does he do some team defensive things that help you win? Certainly. Does him being bad at defense make every single two way player in the league superior? Of course not. Just look at their statistical output man. I feel like I'm talking to a wall when I bring up stats here. You want to tell me George is better just because you say he is. I'll point to Love'sobviously better statistical outputto make my argument. You'll come back and just tell me I'm wrong because George "plays defense." Prove to me why thats more important than Love's 14 boards and shooting ability.

You also cherry picked one sentence of that post. Please explain why Love can be such an elite offensive rebounder but overall is "not great" due to stat inflation? This was the discussion prior to you taking offense to me calling Love as good as George and referring to Hibbert as a role player (which he is). However massive Hibbert's defensive impact on the game is, it's not jumping a 7'2'' guy that shoots 47% and only grabs 7 rebounds into elite status. His numbers across the board are lackluster outside of blocks.

Talent trumps everything. The 00 Blazers were a Kobe to Shaq lob away from a championship and your own 05 Pacers brawl team had definite championship aspirations before losing Artest for the season. That team still did pretty well in the playoffs even. You can point to neither of these teams winning it all if you want, but news flash buddy, the Pacers chemistry isn't going to trump Miami's talent this year either. Kobe has 5 championships. Shaq has 4. Wade has 3. These are all shitheads that had success because of talent. Obscure ideas like teamwork and chemistry aren't what win games. Talent does.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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I'm getting hostile and I don't really mean to be. We can just agree to disagree. I don't think there's a statistical argument out there that presents Love as anything but an absolute superstar in the league. Disagree if you choose.
 
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MAXPOWERS_sl

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I'm not really sure why you're getting hostile either, don't be angry because I don't agree with your heavily favored statistics based evaluation of players. It's like you don't watch basketball and simply decide who is good based off of the box score. You do realize its easy to put up statistics when you play on a garbage team like the TWolves right? Or that its easier to get offensive rebounds when you have players like Rubio constantly putting up bricks. You look at RPG when that isn't nearly as important as rebound percentage based off of rebounds available.

Of players playing 30 or more minutes a game and seeing at least 5 attempts at the rim by an opposing player, the Wolves' big men are 1st and 2nd worst at OPP FG%. Pek allows 59% on 6.7 attempts per game and Love allows 58.3% on 9.1. Basically, if you're playing the Wolves, isolate Love and you have roughly a 60 percent chance of scoring. Until Love shoots at a 61% clip, his offense is not making up for his defensive deficiency.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Woah woah woah. Let's not take stats and misuse them to prove a point. Basing the argument around shots at the rim and then framing it that players shoot 60% when guarded by Love is way off base. Thankfully every team doesn't take all 80 of their shots in Love's face or we'd be really embarrassed.

NBA Stats - Player Opposing Shots

While I can't help but admit that Love is a poor rim defender, his averages in every other zone are right in the middle of the pack. Now while unfortunately Love doesn't shoot 61% from the floor as you contend he must to make up the deficiency, in truth the 19 shots he takes a game probably outweigh the 5 he gives up down low. I'm in no way defending this. It's pretty eye opening, but you're framing it like anyone that matches up against love shoots 60% that night and that just isn't true.

Alternatively, 82games says Love holds opposing PFs to league average production levels. Now while he's giving up baskets at the rim at a very high rate, he's also keeping opponents rebound and assist rates down, while also drawing fouls but not committing them. There has to be something to his defensive acumen to explain this?

Kevin Love of the Minnesota Timberwolves, NBA player stats

I'm certainly a stats guy. I've also watched every game this kid has played, just to be clear.
 
Djay

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Eh, I'll be at the Minnesota/San Antonio game tonight. I don't know why exactly, but it's much easier to scout players live than when watching on television. Probably just because my eye isn't always following the ball like the camera does...I can concentrate on the off-ball action better. Petro may actually be my favorite Wolves player...not that he's the best, just that I like watching him play. I'm just hoping for a good, close game, though. Every game I've attended this year has been a blowout.
 
Ambiturner

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MAXPOWERS_sl said:
I'm not really sure why you're getting hostile either, don't be angry because I don't agree with your heavily favored statistics based evaluation of players. It's like you don't watch basketball and simply decide who is good based off of the box score. You do realize its easy to put up statistics when you play on a garbage team like the TWolves right? Or that its easier to get offensive rebounds when you have players like Rubio constantly putting up bricks. You look at RPG when that isn't nearly as important as rebound percentage based off of rebounds available.

Of players playing 30 or more minutes a game and seeing at least 5 attempts at the rim by an opposing player, the Wolves' big men are 1st and 2nd worst at OPP FG%. Pek allows 59% on 6.7 attempts per game and Love allows 58.3% on 9.1. Basically, if you're playing the Wolves, isolate Love and you have roughly a 60 percent chance of scoring. Until Love shoots at a 61% clip, his offense is not making up for his defensive deficiency.
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There's a whole lot of stipulations to make that point. I also don't know if that just means the opponents PF or the man he's actually guarding at the time.
 
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Man0warr

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Obscure ideas like teamwork and chemistry aren't what win games. Talent does.
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2011 NBA Playoffs - outside of 1st round, the Mavs were always the lesser talented team in their matchups, especially the Finals. Coaching, Teamwork, Chemistry, Talent won that championship - in that order.

Dirk was literally unstoppable that entire summer so he was the best player on the court in almost every game - but vs OKC and Heat you could easily say they had the 2nd, 3rd, and maybe 4th best players on the court.

I'd say the current Heat team has pretty damn good Teamwork and Chemistry by this point as well, a lack of those qualities is why they didn't win vs the Mavs in 2011.

The Spurs exemplify both - age has diminished their big 3's talent at this stage, so they have to make up for it with perfect teamwork and great chemistry.

No one is winning a title without those things. They may not even be able to keep a team together without it - see end of Kobe/Shaq era.

If you are just talking about winning games in the regular season, then Talent does trump all - coaches aren't game planning and I'd say most players don't really get up for most games.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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I don't really know how to respond to that dude. You watched your Mavs team win that championship against what was considered better competition and want to attach something else to it. Kidd, Terry, Dirk and Chandler all four contributed at the same level as their career averages (or prime of career averages). Chemistry didn't cause any of them to play any better or worse than they ever did before. I don't want to take away from Carlisle and I don't want to say that this locker room wasn't great, it might have been. But you won that because you had those four players. You're not winning that championship by removing any one of them in place of a "chemistry guy" or however you want to term it. That was a really great core and it showed. So the argument I'm making isn't that chemistry doesn't exist or that coaching doesn't matter. Simply that talent means SOOOO much more.

I'm not sure you could have two players on a team with as similar skill sets as LeBron and Wade. Somehow that team can still win championships simply because of how good both of them are. The 3 peat Lakers were filled with Shaq/Kobe altercations. Those teams won somehow too.
 
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Man0warr

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Slaythe_sl said:
I don't really know how to respond to that dude. You watched your Mavs team win that championship against what was considered better competition and want to attach something else to it. Kidd, Terry, Dirk and Chandler all four contributed at the same level as their career averages (or prime of career averages). Chemistry didn't cause any of them to play any better or worse than they ever did before. I don't want to take away from Carlisle and I don't want to say that this locker room wasn't great, it might have been. But you won that because you had those four players. You're not winning that championship by removing any one of them in place of a "chemistry guy" or however you want to term it. That was a really great core and it showed. So the argument I'm making isn't that chemistry doesn't exist or that coaching doesn't matter. Simply that talent means SOOOO much more.

I'm not sure you could have two players on a team with as similar skill sets as LeBron and Wade. Somehow that team can still win championships simply because of how good both of them are. The 3 peat Lakers were filled with Shaq/Kobe altercations. Those teams won somehow too.
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All I know is Barea/Kidd/Terry didn't so shit after leaving the Mavs. That is largely the double team blackhole that is Dirk getting them wide open lanes/shots, and Carlisle's coaching and game planning.

If I had to be honest, it was 50% Carlisle/40% Dirk/10% Chandler covering up for Dirk and Terry's defense.

I'm not talking about "Chemistry" guys either, like Juwan Howard - I just mean their collective chemistry. That Mavs team was full of a bunch of veterans with zero rings (Dirk/Marion/Kidd/JET/Peja/etc) and it all gelled after 3 years together. Lightning in a bottle and all that.
 
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