New Progression Server confirmed

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Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Until another random bot shows up in the instance to do the exact same thing. 3 hours respawn on the ground spawns.

(Yes we spawned instances and had this happen too)
With the MQ2 protections, I think we'd have to see how those end up operating before assuming something like that would be worrisome.

Not doubting it could be done easily enough with motivation. But they'd likely have to do it manually, and "waste" entire machines to sitting there, etc. It's possible, just really impractical.

Not to mention they've not stated the keying requirements for the instanced versions yet - as far as we know they'll be lazy and say instanced Trak gives a flag for instanced VP right now - rather than creating a chaotic mess on all that.
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,923
4,779
With the MQ2 protections, I think we'd have to see how those end up operating before assuming something like that would be worrisome.
With a three hour respawn it doesn't need to be automated. It's easy to just do it manually. Set an alarm and do your thing. Even if you sleep 8 hours a day you artificially limit the VP count to two per day.

Obviously in this scenario we're imagining an extremely dedicated person but I bet it happens for at least the first week or so of kunark.
 

Korrupt

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,832
1,228
Phinny is going to be exciting if anything with so many guilds raiding open world raids again.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
With a three hour respawn it doesn't need to be automated. It's easy to just do it manually. Set an alarm and do your thing. Even if you sleep 8 hours a day you artificially limit the VP count to two per day.

Obviously in this scenario we're imagining an extremely dedicated person but I bet it happens for at least the first week or so of kunark.
That dedicated person with an alarm could get trolled by people dropping fish grubs all over to disrupt him picking up/destroying the right bag though. MQ2 I'd imagine doesn't have the problem since it has inhuman reaction time.

Don't get me wrong, it can happen and maybe it will - but it may not be worrisome. I see no reason to chicken little over things that MIGHT happen come March.
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,491
4,505
That dedicated person with an alarm could get trolled by people dropping fish grubs all over to disrupt him picking up/destroying the right bag though. MQ2 I'd imagine doesn't have the problem since it has inhuman reaction time.

Don't get me wrong, it can happen and maybe it will - but it may not be worrisome. I see no reason to chicken little over things that MIGHT happen come March.
Very first thing we tried to trip up the bot was dropping summoned water all over the place, but it was insta picked up and (presumably) destroyed.

I'm just making the point that it takes 1 individual to grief many. Phinny seems like it will have FAR FAR more raid guilds than previous TLP servers. Those bottlenecks will be an issue, trust me.
 

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,003
714
If they merged LJ and RF and set up instancing I wonder how many people would leave. I know I never gave a shit about the bots. But knowing you at least get to do one full boss clear each week is too good to pass up for any "casual" raiding guild.
 

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,307
2,363
Anyone not on top will leave to phinny. Getting guarantee chance once a lockout is better then barely getting anything or scraps.

They had to realize that instancing(and 90 day expansions) + the stupid 6 month thing to RF, would severely reduce both previous servers and they will all flock to the new thing.
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
8,322
7,917
Both LJ are RF are going to be ghost towns for sure. The only way this whole thing makes sense is if they have a merge planned for the Velious launch.
 

Swagdaddy

There is a war going on over control of your mind
1,960
1,870
looks like daybreak realized they can just re-release a new server every 6 months so the same 20 people can box mages and argue with each other to make some return on their investment for at least a few years

good for them
 

Korrupt

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,832
1,228
Anyone not on top will leave to phinny. Getting guarantee chance once a lockout is better then barely getting anything or scraps.

They had to realize that instancing(and 90 day expansions) + the stupid 6 month thing to RF, would severely reduce both previous servers and they will all flock to the new thing.
TL was on top and we still folded which I didn't expect, I was thinking our leaders would stick around and wed make it to Velious at minimum. People jumped ship faster than I've ever seen in any game to the Phinny server guilds.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
TL was on top and we still folded which I didn't expect, I was thinking our leaders would stick around and wed make it to Velious at minimum. People jumped ship faster than I've ever seen in any game to the Phinny server guilds.
It still blows my mind - Wycca was telling me it was the death knell for you guys and I just shrugged it off at first thinking it was just him being hyperbolic (not that it would be normal of him) - then a couple days later it was official and confirmed in public.

Seems from his original take that the majority were for the faster timer though. While many are going for other benefits, he seemed of the thought that TL folks just want the 3 month timer. [It ends up meaning is Velious 3 months later and PoP+ sooner, realistically - which to me is a much better timer, personally (I voted for 3 months, might have even voted for 2 if that had been an option - 6 was nuts)]

His SA posts after we chatted seem to imply that some people were getting burnt out with the amount of time required to lockdown content as well though, since he seemed to suggest that batphoning will be less common - will still occur, but not to the same degree.

That seem like a fair assessment?
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,491
4,505
Well, just a couple weeks back TL and the next two guilds went into a Trak / VP rotation agreement. Poopsocking was getting old for everyone involved, but I imagine TL were tired of their two main competitors being on Euro time and the obscene batphone hours involved in locking down content. I know for a fact the recent vote affected TL more than anything. No idea how any of this shit will pan out after the new server.

My guild (Darkwind) are planning on staying on Ragefire. Any Euros looking for a home, hit us up atDarkwind gaming
 

Thraka_sl

shitlord
148
0
It still blows my mind - Wycca was telling me it was the death knell for you guys and I just shrugged it off at first thinking it was just him being hyperbolic (not that it would be normal of him) - then a couple days later it was official and confirmed in public.

Seems from his original take that the majority were for the faster timer though. While many are going for other benefits, he seemed of the thought that TL folks just want the 3 month timer. [It ends up meaning is Velious 3 months later and PoP+ sooner, realistically - which to me is a much better timer, personally (I voted for 3 months, might have even voted for 2 if that had been an option - 6 was nuts)]

His SA posts after we chatted seem to imply that some people were getting burnt out with the amount of time required to lockdown content as well though, since he seemed to suggest that batphoning will be less common - will still occur, but not to the same degree.

That seem like a fair assessment?
If it wasn't clear already, the six month vote was a death sentence for both servers. The worst part about the entire thing is that I'm not so sure that Daybreak understands the Phinigel server is mostly comprised of players from both Ragefire and Lockjaw. All they're doing is redistributing the population between the two servers to a third server which is going to exponentially increase the death toll on all three servers.

There are a lot of big egos that are going to be on Phinigel, it's going to be a Citizen (MM) Versus TL (SA), the only difference is the actual core of TL outside of a few bodies are going to be playing with Citizen. The current leadership of SA consists of one old school TL officer (Elaida), Sulerill was never an old school officer but he's a decent one. The rest of the leaderboard roster in SA is absolutely useless, First (Wycca) included. Call it shots fired if you want but those guys don't have a hope in hell of running anything productive, their only saving grace is they have instances to protect them.

TL/DR my computer ended up dying right after the six month vote epic fail by DBG, during that time the other officers got together and decided they were going to move to Phinigel. After they concluded the fundamentals and decided how they were going to approach the new server they made a formal post about the SA guild. So in essence they wanted me to help them run a guild with an structure that I don't jive with. Not to mention 70% of Everquest in a high end raiding guild on these TLP servers is all about politics, I'm sure Zaide can attest to this. We (TL Old and some new) are playing for the other team (Citizen) this time around.
 

Korrupt

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,832
1,228
I think it was almost everything you guys have said + lack of any communication on what our plans were. One day we just noticed 30 something of our members and officers had applied to SA / Cascade and everyone just followed.

Sadness, I really liked most of our crew and leadership =(
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Ouch Thraka, hadn't heard about the PC blowing up. Seems lame that they didn't get you involved or anything. My story leading on Vulak had a similar "Hey, I'm gone for a bit" situation (belly surgery in my case - so couldn't sit in a chair for over a month) and then I came back to something I wasn't cool with myself. Also had my PC blow up immediately before our first scheduled raid on LJ, but finances are solid enough these days that I just said screw it and ran out to Best Buy and got a fresh new laptop while I waited on my repair parts to get here from Newegg - finished installing EQ like 5 min into raid time.

And no clue honestly how First/Wycca is as a leader, only known him as a friend and a resource for analyzing data - he's got an amazing head for numbers, but knowing numbers is a minor part of personnel management. So no worries, he might not be cool with downplaying him like that, but I honestly don't know his capacity in a leadership role to defend him. Only thing I can say is it seems like he did well at rotation planning, but that skill became pointless on RF and will be completely pointless with instances.

Good people don't always make good leaders.
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
8,322
7,917
Gonna be a real interesting situation for many people I'd wager. The idea of playing through classic again right now and doing another level grind just sounds like aids, so I'll probably not do much more than mess around very casually on Phinny. But from the sounds of it LJ is going to be a fucking ghost town once it opens, and I don't know how I feel about that either. FI will probably be fine, but it seems likely we're poised to be literally the only ones left still playing after Phinny opens, aside from maybe a few of the huge box crews still trying to make money somehow.
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,923
4,779
The two biggest issues I saw on RF/LJ were the six month timers (dead horse) and the faster respawn rate of raid mobs.

To be the "Top Guild" in early EQ you've got to do the following:

  • Get the "server firsts" i.e. beat content the fastest
  • Get the majority of all relevant raid content
  • Defeat the most difficult encounters


On Vulak and Fippy this was much easier. The respawn for most raid mobs was 72 hours w/ 12 hour windows. This meant you could roll with a relatively lean guild and had a ton of extra play time to do whatever you wanted in real life or in game. On LJ and RF the respawn timer has been about 24 hours with a 24 hour window. Trakanon and VS are 16 hours... That's a lot of content to "lock down" and it puts an immense strain on the crews that track these mobs literally 24/7. Then they added the buffs to the raid mobs so you could still kill them with like 35 people BUT the "Top Guild" needs to be able to kill these mobs in sub ten minutes from spawn around the clock. That means you need to have a huge force to make sure you get the numbers there asap. The existence of krono only enabled this further. I never boxed before Lockjaw but there were times where I was running 20+ characters on Lockjaw.

Obviously the solution that jumps out at you is to just "share the content" like why bother locking it down? A few things come to mind but a big factor is inertia. You've been playing EQ for 15 years and every top guild ever (pretty much) has locked down content. When you start trying to share and be nice etc you begin to feel like you're fucking up. Also remember you need to have a huge force to mobilize around the clock, which means you need steady recruitment and if you're sharing content relatively evenly there is no reason for people to join your guild over another guild. Getting the "server firsts" isn't going to be impressive enough to carry a recruitment through six months of content.

Remember you're also spending the whole expansion compensating for attrition, a ton of players only do the first 1-2 months of an expansion when it's fresh and new. Once you've killed Trakanon 90 times and you're only half way done a lot of people won't show up for the next 90, especially when they're at 4am on a Monday. So you recruit to compensate for attrition, when means you actually need these mobs to gear the new members so you're not just locking people out, you're taking care of your guys.

Then finally the new expansion launches and all those bored players come back, suddenly you've got 300 man raid forces. On Fippy and Vulak people got sick of the content more slowly because they did it less. They also had the shorter timer which meant you could get bored at the two month mark and say "well it's only a few more weeks before XYZ" and you had much less attrition. This combination of six months + daily respawns is toxic.

In terms of politics, Thraka is right and it can get pretty crazy. Like if you were a top raiding guild on these servers and you didn't read the forums one day you would have logged in and found out your whole guild was suspended. The mandatory rotations were a joke doomed from the outset. Even rotation guilds were getting butthurt near then end when it was a two week wait for a Nagafen/Vox kill. It was like you got two of each raid mob before the "council" met again to change up all the rules. And those rotation meetings were like 8 hours, it was hilarious. The period of mandatory rotations was the only time that EQ ever truly felt like a job to me. We were signing documents and shit and talking constantly for nothing.

I remember watching all the drama MM was creating on the forums during the forced rotations and I loved every bit of it. Roshen and the other staff had to deal with that shit. That's like one or two dudes trying to trudge through hundreds of pages of shit, including our like 40 page "leaders chat" with Roshen and the guild leadership. My whole mindset during that period was that if these guys just kept crying and blowing up over every perceived slight or mishap, guilds making some minor or trivial error then eventually the burden of dealing with the nonsense would cause DBG to totally bail on the rotations and that was exactly what happened.

The last time I spoke to Roshen before the rotations ended he was pretty frank, basically saying he was staying at work several hours late regularly just to deal with the rotation drama (This was like a Friday night at 7pm PST too..) and that there was little he could do in the face of the giant mountain he was expected to deal with in addition to all his normal working duties.

In EQ raiding is just one part of the equation. The metagame is fought in petitions, emails, forums and twitter.You've got to play on all fronts if you want to win, even if the best players from all time created an unbeatable raid force, if they neglected those other areas then the "competition" would get them canned by using DBG Staff and public opinion against them.
 

radditsu

Silver Knight of the Realm
4,676
826
The two biggest issues I saw on RF/LJ were the six month timers (dead horse) and the faster respawn rate of raid mobs.

To be the "Top Guild" in early EQ you've got to do the following:

  • Get the "server firsts" i.e. beat content the fastest
  • Get the majority of all relevant raid content
  • Defeat the most difficult encounters


On Vulak and Fippy this was much easier. The respawn for most raid mobs was 72 hours w/ 12 hour windows. This meant you could roll with a relatively lean guild and had a ton of extra play time to do whatever you wanted in real life or in game. On LJ and RF the respawn timer has been about 24 hours with a 24 hour window. Trakanon and VS are 16 hours... That's a lot of content to "lock down" and it puts an immense strain on the crews that track these mobs literally 24/7. Then they added the buffs to the raid mobs so you could still kill them with like 35 people BUT the "Top Guild" needs to be able to kill these mobs in sub ten minutes from spawn around the clock. That means you need to have a huge force to make sure you get the numbers there asap. The existence of krono only enabled this further. I never boxed before Lockjaw but there were times where I was running 20+ characters on Lockjaw.

Obviously the solution that jumps out at you is to just "share the content" like why bother locking it down? A few things come to mind but a big factor is inertia. You've been playing EQ for 15 years and every top guild ever (pretty much) has locked down content. When you start trying to share and be nice etc you begin to feel like you're fucking up. Also remember you need to have a huge force to mobilize around the clock, which means you need steady recruitment and if you're sharing content relatively evenly there is no reason for people to join your guild over another guild. Getting the "server firsts" isn't going to be impressive enough to carry a recruitment through six months of content.

Remember you're also spending the whole expansion compensating for attrition, a ton of players only do the first 1-2 months of an expansion when it's fresh and new. Once you've killed Trakanon 90 times and you're only half way done a lot of people won't show up for the next 90, especially when they're at 4am on a Monday. So you recruit to compensate for attrition, when means you actually need these mobs to gear the new members so you're not just locking people out, you're taking care of your guys.

Then finally the new expansion launches and all those bored players come back, suddenly you've got 300 man raid forces. On Fippy and Vulak people got sick of the content more slowly because they did it less. They also had the shorter timer which meant you could get bored at the two month mark and say "well it's only a few more weeks before XYZ" and you had much less attrition. This combination of six months + daily respawns is toxic.

In terms of politics, Thraka is right and it can get pretty crazy. Like if you were a top raiding guild on these servers and you didn't read the forums one day you would have logged in and found out your whole guild was suspended. The mandatory rotations were a joke doomed from the outset. Even rotation guilds were getting butthurt near then end when it was a two week wait for a Nagafen/Vox kill. It was like you got two of each raid mob before the "council" met again to change up all the rules. And those rotation meetings were like 8 hours, it was hilarious. The period of mandatory rotations was the only time that EQ ever truly felt like a job to me. We were signing documents and shit and talking constantly for nothing.

I remember watching all the drama MM was creating on the forums during the forced rotations and I loved every bit of it. Roshen and the other staff had to deal with that shit. That's like one or two dudes trying to trudge through hundreds of pages of shit, including our like 40 page "leaders chat" with Roshen and the guild leadership. My whole mindset during that period was that if these guys just kept crying and blowing up over every perceived slight or mishap, guilds making some minor or trivial error then eventually the burden of dealing with the nonsense would cause DBG to totally bail on the rotations and that was exactly what happened.

The last time I spoke to Roshen before the rotations ended he was pretty frank, basically saying he was staying at work several hours late regularly just to deal with the rotation drama (This was like a Friday night at 7pm PST too..) and that there was little he could do in the face of the giant mountain he was expected to deal with in addition to all his normal working duties.

In EQ raiding is just one part of the equation. The metagame is fought in petitions, emails, forums and twitter.You've got to play on all fronts if you want to win, even if the best players from all time created an unbeatable raid force, if they neglected those other areas then the "competition" would get them canned by using DBG Staff and public opinion against them.
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