North Korea goes full retard

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Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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You would hope that we would have our own investigation into a crime that occurred in another country? Think about what that would mean without the flip. You're saying that the Taliban should have come to the U.S. to do an investigation to see whether or not there was merit to our demand to turn over Bin Laden. While that's certainly a very interesting proposition, I'm not sure that's something you'd actually endorse.
wink.png
No, I'm saying that if a person known to be in the US were to commit a grave terrorist act that killed thousands of people that the US government wouldn't need the country that act was committed in in order to make the determination that the person was involved.

If, for example, some Christian fundies were to drive a plane full of TNT into the heart of Kabul I would hope that the US government wouldn't need Afghanistan officials to come to the US to investigate those Christian fundies. I would hope that the FBI would investigate them and they'd either be prosecuted by a US court, an international court or an Afghanistan court.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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well that's not what happened, they asked for proof and to give him to a third party,You know because maybe in our blood lust we weren't thinking properly. we said give him up, no evidence or else.

and that's not how law works? you get tried for the crime according to where the crime is committed, that's why extradition exists right? otherwise we'd just tell other countries to prosecute people based on our word? does that even happen?
 
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No, I'm saying that if a person known to be in the US were to commit a grave terrorist act that killed thousands of people that the US government wouldn't need the country that act was committed in in order to make the determination that the person was involved.
I think that they absolutely would and that in the normal course of the investigative process that happens all the time.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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No, I'm saying that if a person known to be in the US were to commit a grave terrorist act that killed thousands of people that the US government wouldn't need the country that act was committed in in order to make the determination that the person was involved.

If, for example, some Christian fundies were to drive a plane full of TNT into the heart of Kabul I would hope that the US government wouldn't need Afghanistan officials to come to the US to investigate those Christian fundies. I would hope that the FBI would investigate them and they'd either be prosecuted by a US court, an international court or an Afghanistan court.
Wait, I dont understand what you're saying.

Are you saying that US would conduct their own investigation and then hand over the fundies over to Afghanistan?
 

chaos

Buzzfeed Editor
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I do. Maybe I'm naive, but I am pretty sure that some version of what Tuco said is accurate.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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Same. I am not even sure how you think it would go down Araysar. You think the US wouldn't investigate it? We would right away be trying to make sure that the actions of a few crazies weren't tied to the entire US.
 
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We would conduct our own investigation into what occurred here and we would go to whatever agency had jurisdiction (almost certainly through INTERPOL).Possiblywe might be allowed to send an investigative team into another country. In ALL cases, we would ask for whatever evidence the other country had before turning anyone over and if none was provided it would be an act of blatant aggression for someone else to bomb us if we decided there wasn't enough evidence to turn them over. Thatwholescenario implies that time is given for such an investigation AND that evidence is actually provided for us to accept or reject in any case. None of that applies to our attack against Afghanistan.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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Same. I am not even sure how you think it would go down Araysar. You think the US wouldn't investigate it? We would right away be trying to make sure that the actions of a few crazies weren't tied to the entire US.
We might investigate but we dont hand our citizens over to another country for justice. That's insanity and that happens extremely rarely if ever. Basically the only times Americans get tried in another country's justice system is when they get caught over there and even then the State Dept. fights all the time to get them released regardless of the evidence, simply because we hate another country rendering justice on US nationals.

By the way, Bin Laden wasnt even an Afghan citizen as far as I'm aware, so the entire analogy is even less accurate.

Basically from the time that 9/11 happened to the time we had boots on the ground (real boots, not Aladain boots) was less than a month. You're crazy if you think that the American offer was anything less than an ultimatum that totally violated Afghani sovereignity, i.e. give us Bin laden or we will invade, kill all of you and take him anyways.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Basically from the time that 9/11 happened to the time we had boots on the ground (real boots, not Aladain boots) was less than a month. You're crazy if you think that the American offer was anything less than an ultimatum that totally violated Afghani sovereignity, i.e. give us Bin laden or we will invade, kill all of you and take him anyways.
I agree with this.

However I do find fault with the response of "We, the afgan govt, will not do shit unless you prove Bin Laden did something wrong." I'm not saying that we were willing to peacefully negotiate Bin Laden's extradition to the US, I'm just saying that if that's the extent of Afghanistan's response then maybe they weren't in a position to give us or prosecute bin Laden.
 
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I agree with this.

However I do find fault with the response of "We, the afgan govt, will not do shit unless you prove Bin Laden did something wrong." I'm not saying that we were willing to peacefully negotiate Bin Laden's extradition to the US, I'm just saying that if that's the extent of Afghanistan's response then maybe they weren't in a position to give us or prosecute bin Laden.
How exactly would they have investigated the attacks of 9/11?
 

Gadrel_sl

shitlord
465
3
We might investigate but we dont hand our citizens over to another country for justice. That's insanity and that happens extremely rarely if ever. Basically the only times Americans get tried in another country's justice system is when they get caught over there and even then the State Dept. fights all the time to get them released regardless of the evidence, simply because we hate another country rendering justice on US nationals.

By the way, Bin Laden wasnt even an Afghan citizen as far as I'm aware, so the entire analogy is even less accurate.

Basically from the time that 9/11 happened to the time we had boots on the ground (real boots, not Aladain boots) was less than a month. You're crazy if you think that the American offer was anything less than an ultimatum that totally violated Afghani sovereignity, i.e. give us Bin laden or we will invade, kill all of you and take him anyways.
We have bilateral extradition treaties with many countries.http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/71600.pdfIt occurs with some frequency. Most of the cases on point are old Nazi cases, like John Demjanjuk's. Here's a fairly recent case:http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2...ead/lead1.htmland anotherhttp://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-5th-circuit/1617381.html

TREATIES OF EXTRADITION
The United States currently has bilateral extradition treaties with
the following countries:
http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve(5 of 10)8/24/2006 12:36:49 PMWAIS Document Retrieval
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Country Date signed Entered into force Citation
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albania............................. Mar. 1, 1933............ Nov. 14, 1935.......... 49 Stat. 3313.
Antigua and Barbuda................. June 3, 1996............ July 1, 1999...........
Argentina........................... June 10, 1997........... June 15, 2000..........
Australia........................... May 14, 1974............ May 8, 1976............ 27 UST 957.
Sept. 4, 1990........... Dec. 21, 1992..........
Austria............................. Jan. 8, 1998............ Jan. 1, 2000...........
May 19, 1934............ Sept. 5, 1934.......... 49 Stat. 2710.
Bahamas............................. Mar. 9, 1990............ Sept. 22, 1994......... TIAS.
Barbados............................ Feb. 28, 1996........... Mar. 3, 2000...........
Belgium............................. Apr. 27, 1987........... Sept. 1, 1997..........
Belize.............................. Mar. 30, 2000........... Mar. 27, 2001..........
Bolivia............................. June 27, 1995........... Nov. 21, 1996..........
Brazil.............................. Jan. 13, 1961........... Dec. 17, 1964.......... 15 UST 2093.
June 18, 1962........... Dec. 17, 1964.......... 15 UST 2112.
Bulgaria............................ Mar. 19, 1924........... June 24, 1924.......... 43 Stat. 1886.
June 8, 1934............ Aug. 15, 1935.......... 49 Stat. 3250.
Burma............................... Dec. 22, 1931........... Nov. 1, 1941........... 47 Stat. 2122.
Canada.............................. Dec. 3, 1971............ Mar. 22, 1976.......... 27 UST 983.
June 28, July 9, 1974... Mar. 22, 1976.......... 27 UST 1017.
Jan. 11, 1988........... Nov. 26, 1991.......... TIAS.
Jan. 12, 2001........... Apr. 30, 2003..........
Chile............................... Apr. 17, 1900........... June 26, 1902.......... 32 Stat. 1850.
Colombia............................ Sept. 14, 1979.......... Mar. 4, 1982........... TIAS.
Congo............................... Jan. 6, 1909............ July 27, 1911.......... 37 Stat. 1526.
Jan. 15, 1929........... May 19, 1929........... 46 Stat. 2276.
Apr. 23, 1936........... Sept. 24, 1936......... 50 Stat. 1117.
........................ Aug. 5, 1961........... 13 UST 2065.
Costa Rica.......................... Dec. 4, 1982............ Oct. 11, 1991.......... TIAS.
Cuba................................ Apr. 6, 1904............ Mar. 2, 1905........... 33 Stat. 2265.
Dec. 6, 1904............ Mar. 2, 1905........... 33 Stat. 2273.
Jan. 14, 1926........... June 18, 1926.......... 44 Stat. 2392.
Cyprus.............................. June 17, 1996........... Sept. 14, 1999.........
Czech Republic...................... July 2, 1925............ Mar. 29, 1926.......... 44 Stat. 2367.
Apr. 29, 1935........... Aug. 28, 1935.......... 49 Stat. 3253.
Denmark............................. June 22, 1972........... July 31, 1974.......... 25 UST 1293.
Dominica............................ Oct. 10, 1996........... May 25, 2000...........
Dominican Republic.................. June 19, 1909........... Aug. 2, 1910........... 36 Stat. 2468.
Ecuador............................. June 28, 1872........... Nov. 12, 1873.......... 18 Stat. 199.
Sept. 22, 1939.......... May 29, 1941........... 55 Stat. 1196.
http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve(6 of 10)8/24/2006 12:36:49 PMWAIS Document Retrieval
Egypt............................... Aug. 11, 1874........... Apr. 22, 1875.......... 19 Stat. 572.
El Salvador......................... Apr. 18, 1911........... July 10, 1911.......... 37 Stat. 1516.
Estonia............................. Nov. 8, 1923............ Nov. 15, 1924.......... 43 Stat. 1849.
Oct. 10, 1934........... May 7, 1935............ 49 Stat. 3190.
Fiji................................ Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ Aug. 17, 1973.......... 24 UST 1965.
Finland............................. June 11, 1976........... May 11, 1980........... 31 UST 944.
France.............................. Apr. 23, 1996........... Feb. 1, 2002...........
Gambia.............................. Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Germany............................. June 20, 1978........... Aug. 29, 1980.......... 32 UST 1485.
Oct. 21, 1986........... Mar. 11, 1993..........
Ghana............................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Greece.............................. May 6, 1931............. Nov. 1, 1932........... 47 Stat. 2185.
Sept. 2, 1937........... Sept. 2, 1937.......... 51 Stat. 357.
Grenada............................. May 30, 1996............ Sept. 14, 1999.........
Guatemala........................... Feb. 27, 1903........... Aug. 15, 1903.......... 33 Stat. 2147.
Feb. 20, 1940........... Mar. 13, 1941.......... 55 Stat. 1097.
Guyana.............................. Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Haiti............................... Aug. 9, 1904............ June 28, 1905.......... 34 Stat. 2858.
Honduras............................ Jan. 15, 1909........... July 10, 1912.......... 37 Stat. 1616.
Feb. 21, 1927........... June 5, 1928........... 45 Stat. 2489.
Hong Kong........................... Dec. 20, 1996........... Jan. 21, 1998..........
Hungary............................. Dec. 1, 1994............ Mar. 18, 1997..........
Iceland............................. Jan. 6, 1902............ ....................... 32 Stat. 1096.
Nov. 6, 1905............ Feb. 19, 1906.......... 34 Stat. 2887.
India............................... June 25, 1997........... July 21, 1999..........
Iraq................................ June 7, 1934............ Apr. 23, 1936.......... 49 Stat. 3380.
Ireland............................. July 13, 1983........... Dec. 15, 1984.......... TIAS 10813.
Israel.............................. Dec. 10, 1962........... Dec. 5, 1963........... 14 UST 1707.
........................ Apr. 11, 1967.......... 18 UST 382.
Italy............................... Oct. 13, 1983........... Sept. 24, 1984......... TIAS 10837.
Jamaica............................. June 14, 1983........... July 7, 1991...........
Japan............................... Mar. 3, 1978............ Mar. 26, 1980.......... 31 UST 892.
Jordan.............................. Mar. 28, 1995........... July 29, 1995..........
Kenya............................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ Aug. 19, 1965.......... 16 UST 1866.
Kiribati............................ June 8, 1972............ Jan. 21, 1977.......... 28 UST 227.
Korea............................... June 9, 1998............ Dec. 20, 1999..........
Latvia.............................. Oct. 16, 1923........... Mar. 1, 1924........... 43 Stat. 1738.
Oct. 10, 1934........... Mar. 29, 1935.......... 49 Stat. 3131.
Lesotho............................. Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Liberia............................. Nov. 1, 1937............ Nov. 21, 1939.......... 54 Stat. 1733.
Liechtenstein....................... May 20, 1936............ June 28, 1937.......... 50 Stat. 1337.
http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve(7 of 10)8/24/2006 12:36:49 PMWAIS Document Retrieval
Lithuania........................... Oct. 23, 2001........... Mar. 31, 2003..........
Luxembourg.......................... Oct. 1, 1996............ Feb. 1, 2002...........
Malawi.............................. Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ Apr. 4, 1967........... 18 UST 1822.
Malaysia............................ Aug. 3, 1995............ June 2, 1997...........
Malta............................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Mauritius........................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Mexico.............................. May 4, 1978............. Jan. 25, 1980.......... 31 UST 5059.
Nov. 13, 1997........... May 21, 2001...........
Monaco.............................. Feb. 15, 1939........... Mar. 28, 1940.......... 54 Stat. 1780.
Nauru............................... Dec. 22, 1931........... Aug. 30, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Netherlands......................... June 24, 1980........... Sept. 15, 1983......... TIAS 10733.
New Zealand......................... Jan. 12, 1970........... Dec. 8, 1970........... 22 UST 1.
Nicaragua........................... Mar. 1, 1905............ July 14, 1907.......... 35 Stat. 1869.
Nigeria............................. Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Norway.............................. June 9, 1977............ Mar. 7, 1980........... 31 UST 5619.
Pakistan............................ Dec. 22, 1931........... Mar. 9, 1942........... 47 Stat. 2122.
Panama.............................. May 25, 1904............ May 8, 1905............ 34 Stat. 2851.
Papua New Guinea.................... Dec. 22, 1931........... Aug. 30, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Paraguay............................ Nov. 9, 1998............ Mar. 9, 2001...........
Peru................................ July 26, 2001........... Aug. 25, 2003..........
Philippines......................... Nov. 13, 1994........... Nov. 22, 1996..........
Poland.............................. July 10, 1996........... Sept. 17, 1999.........
Apr. 5, 1935............ June 5, 1936........... 49 Stat. 3394.
Portugal............................ May 7, 1908............. Nov. 14, 1908.......... 35 Stat. 2071.
Romania............................. July 23, 1924........... Apr. 7, 1925........... 44 Stat. 2020.
Nov. 10, 1936........... July 27, 1937.......... 50 Stat. 1349.
Saint Christopher and Nevis......... Sept. 18, 1996.......... Feb. 23, 2000..........
Saint Lucia......................... Apr. 18, 1996........... Feb. 2, 2000...........
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines.... Aug. 15, 1996........... Sept. 8, 1999..........
San Marino.......................... Jan. 10, 1906........... July 8, 1908........... 35 Stat. 1971.
Oct. 10, 1934........... June 28, 1935.......... 49 Stat. 3198.
Seychelles.......................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Sierra Leone........................ Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Singapore........................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ June 10, 1969.......... 20 UST 2764.
Slovac Republic..................... July 2, 1925............ Mar. 29, 1926.......... 44 Stat. 2367
Apr. 29, 1935........... Aug. 28, 1935.......... 49 Stat. 3253.
Solomon Islands..................... June 8, 1972............ Jan. 21, 1977.......... 28 UST 277.
South Africa........................ Sept. 16, 1999.......... June 25, 2001..........
Spain............................... May 29, 1970............ June 16, 1971.......... 22 UST 737.
Jan. 25, 1975........... June 2, 1978........... 29 UST 2283.
Feb. 9, 1988............ July 2, 1993...........
http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve(8 of 10)8/24/2006 12:36:49 PMWAIS Document Retrieval
Mar. 12, 1996........... July 25, 1999..........
Sri Lanka........................... Sept. 30, 1999.......... Jan. 12, 2001..........
Suriname............................ June 2, 1887............ July 11, 1889.......... 26 Stat. 1481.
Jan. 18, 1904........... Aug. 28, 1904.......... 33 Stat. 2257.
Swaziland........................... Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ July 28, 1970.......... 21 UST 1930.
Sweden.............................. Oct. 24, 1961........... Dec. 3, 1963........... 14 UST 1845.
Mar. 14, 1983........... Sept. 24, 1984......... TIAS 10812.
Switzerland......................... Nov. 14, 1990........... Sept. 10, 1997.........
Tanzania............................ Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ Dec. 6, 1965........... 16 UST 2066.
Thailand............................ Dec. 30, 1922........... Mar. 24, 1924.......... 43 Stat. 1749.
Tonga............................... Dec. 22, 1931........... Aug. 1, 1966........... 47 Stat. 2122.
........................ Apr. 13, 1977.......... 28 UST 5290.
Trinidad and Tobago................. Mar. 4, 1996............ Nov. 29, 1999..........
Turkey.............................. June 7, 1979............ Jan. 1, 1981........... 32 UST 3111.
Tuvalu.............................. June 8, 1972............ Jan. 21, 1977.......... 28 UST 227.
........................ Apr. 25, 1980.......... 32 UST 1310.
United Kingdom...................... June 8, 1972............ Jan. 21, 1977.......... 28 UST 227.
June 25, 1985........... Dec. 23, 1986.......... TIAS.
Uruguay............................. Apr. 6, 1973............ Apr. 11, 1984.......... TIAS 10850.
Venezuela........................... Jan. 19, 21, 1922....... Apr. 14, 1923.......... 43 Stat. 1698.
Yugoslavia \1\...................... Oct. 25, 1901........... June 12, 1902.......... 32 Stat. 1890.
Zambia.............................. Dec. 22, 1931........... June 24, 1935.......... 47 Stat. 2122.
Zimbabwe............................ July 25, 1997........... Apr. 26, 2000..........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
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Yeah, that's not what extradition treaties are for.

Extradition treaties mean that if a US citizen committed a crime in US and then fled to another country to escape jurisdiction, then we get him back. One of the more famous cases is Roman Polanski hiding in France.

If a US citizen committed a crime in Singapore, US cant just ask for him back. He gets to face the Singaporean justice system and after he served his sentence (unless its execution) he gets repatriated back to US.
 

Gadrel_sl

shitlord
465
3
What you're saying is true, but not entirely correct. Extradition treaties also cover the scenario you painted earlier of a US citizen committing a crime in another country, coming back to the US, then being extradited to the country where the crime was committed. Check the Jamaican and 5th circuit cases I linked, they are that exact scenario. In the Jamaican one a US citizen committed a murder in Jamaica and fled to the US, he was extradited back to Jamaica to stand trial. In the 5th circuit case a US citizen committed theft by fraud in Argentina, fled to the US, and was extradited back to Argentina to face trial.
 

Loser Araysar

Chief Russia Reporter. Stock Pals CEO. Head of AI.
<Gold Donor>
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You got the scenario backwards.

There is a big distinction between asking back for a guy before he faced Singaporean justice, or shipping him back to face Singaporean justice if you have him.
 
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What's the point of this discussion about extradition treaties? We didn't have one with Afghanistan. It doesn't follow from that that our only choice then was bombing the fuck out of people that can't even feed themselves.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
14,071
6,775
We weren't bombing the fuck out of people that can't feed themselves. We were going after the Taliban. Important distinction.

It is just absurd people acting like the Taliban was some nice 1st world government that we could deal with rationally and would have calmly looked over evidence on whether or not OBL was behind 9/11. Wake up to reality. I was listening to NPR nonstop during the initial taliban "offer" and not a fucking single policy analyst or anyone else took it seriously then.
 

lurkingdirk

AssHat Taint
<Medals Crew>
48,468
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Is this where we leave birthday greetings for the great leader?


Happy birthday, you self-absorbed mother fucker. You're going to have a great day, likely feast on anything you want, enjoy the comforts of modern living, and be smug, while a huge percentage of your population live in the dark ages because of the limitations you've placed on them. Well done! May you condemn millions to live in poverty.
 
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We weren't bombing the fuck out of people that can't feed themselves. We were going after the Taliban. Important distinction.
Uh huh.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...tan-food-drops
http://www.comw.org/pda/0201strangevic.html#appendix1.1


It is just absurd people acting like the Taliban was some nice 1st world government that we could deal with rationally and would have calmly looked over evidence on whether or not OBL was behind 9/11.
Yeah, they bad we good. Got it.

reaganmeetstalibanwhitehouse.jpg


Wake up to reality. I was listening to NPR nonstop during the initial taliban "offer" and not a fucking single policy analyst or anyone else took it seriously then.
Actually everywhere else in the world that was the ONLY serious policy option:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/componen...154/26553.html

I don't know if you think that I think NPR is some kind of bastion for rationality and objectiveness, but I don't.

http://books.zcommunications.org/cho.../sld-1-09.html