Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Gecko_sl said:

If Brad has a back room deal with SOE, I doubt it'll come out anytime soon. He's smart if he tries to leverage their tech resources under the table to save some time and money. I'm not sure what Smed gets out of it, though.

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I just negged this post for no fucking reason because I didn't know what the little thumbs were... Sorry...

Let's face it... this is leveraging words. Brad listened to their ideas and they used his name to create a little stir a few months ago and in exchange he bounced some ideas off them and they probably allowed a few artists to create some images for his kickstarter thus he is working "close". He stood over someone shoulder while they made a few renderings and put together some promotional stuff. Who knows... maybe he horse traded until he got the engine or something a little more but nevertheless, I wouldn't get too sucked in by these statement because in the end, all these guys are businessmen who are in a delicate position to survive in the shadows of a genre that once was....

Erronius_sl said:

The other potential message...investors that give no fucks about MMOs are going to look at this Kickstarter and immediately wonder that if a niche game/genre like this can get, say, $2mthen what would a WOW-clone kickstarter be able to generate. $3m? $4m?Not to mention that seeing Brad get funding given his past might make others think that you don't really need to succeed, just spam a new project/game at every opportunity because there will always be people willing to throw many at random_game_04 while desperately hoping that maybe that game might be worth it.

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I thought the whole point of Kickstarter is giving people a chance to help kickstart niche projects? (projects that will not be funded by big publishers but the developers believe they can be successful and there's demand for such games; hence the player help fund these projects).

In other words; a WoW-clone is not niche and has been tried numerous times (Rift, SW:TOR, Wildstar...etc) why would anyone wants to get involved in a kickstarter that intends to make a game which is already available in the market? doesn't make sense to me. That WoW-genre is saturating the market already and I doubt, despite their clueless-ness, any investor would want to invest in a WoW-clone anymore. This is so last decade.

I think kickstarter is a blessing. I helped fund great projects (many of which actually turned into really decent games) SolForge which is a game I play on a daily basis is a great example. Now, an MMORPG is a different beast and that's why I hope Brad just focus on what made EQ good and do that. Nothing fancy and no gimmicks required.

gogojira_sl said:

People are putting way too much into the SOE thing. He said he's working close in a tweet, but that likely means using his connections and maybe leveraging some tech. Despite being part of the ROF he's still probably chummy enough with Smedley. I'd put money on it that Storybricks is a part of this game. SOE isn't going to be a part of a Kickstarter projectunlessthe pitch is so tempting to Smed that he picks it up after the KS launch. That's actually happened for a few projects during (leading to the cancellation) and after (leading to a few turned heads) a Kickstarter project.

I want some real insight into what this Kickstarter money is going towards though. The most successful projects clear around $2 million and aren't nearly on the scale of an MMO and even those often have a hard time keeping within budget. To raise that much, you've got to have an Inafune or a Schafer name on the project.

Is this going to be towards funding a pitch to other companies? Is it going to be spread across a couple of projects like Pathfinder (and hopefully not nearly as ugly)? Hopefully all this becomes clearer soon enough.

I'm one of the most optimistic people on this board about Brad's new game but the money doesn't add up in my head -- not that I'd be a knowledgeable source for a game dev budget.

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People are putting way too much into the SOE thing and in the next sentence you put money on storybricks being in McQuaid's project? You're the high bet in this race with this you realize that? For me, I think a deal with the devil is the ONLY way to get this project off the ground, and SOE is one of the smaller evils these days. I know some here think the interest will be high enough to entirely crowdfund this, and I would love that. I'm just not convinced it'll work and I'd rather have SOE involved then NCsoft for example.

Laura_sl said:

I thought the whole point of Kickstarter is giving people a chance to help kickstart niche projects? (projects that will not be funded by big publishers but the developers believe they can be successful and there's demand for such games; hence the player help fund these projects).

In other words; a WoW-clone is not niche and has been tried numerous times (Rift, SW:TOR, Wildstar...etc) why would anyone wants to get involved in a kickstarter that intends to make a game which is already available in the market? doesn't make sense to me. That WoW-genre is saturating the market already and I doubt, despite their clueless-ness, any investor would want to invest in a WoW-clone anymore. This is so last decade.

I think kickstarter is a blessing. I helped fund great projects (many of which actually turned into really decent games) SolForge which is a game I play on a daily basis is a great example. Now, an MMORPG is a different beast and that's why I hope Brad just focus on what made EQ good and do that. Nothing fancy and no gimmicks required.

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Kickstarting means just that, getting it going. It can very well mean getting a million dollars as proof of consumer interest to have a better bargaining position with a publisher. Especially large project like an MMO might do that. Star Citizen planned on getting a publisher and had a Kickstarter goal of less then a mill. Obviously that one blew all expectations, but that's rare. Looking at the DaoC and UO follow-ups paints a picture that's probably not getting an MMO off the ground without additional money.


Your other question, why would anyone want to get involved in kickstarting a project that is similar to an existing game, sounds like a troll. Especially given your examples. I'm sure there are more millions of people that want "a better done WoW" then there are people that want an EQ-remake. Why would they not supporta project that wants to make a game they want to play? Publisher-made games surely failed at it often, but those people want a success. There hasnt been a successful WoW clone from a player point of view (some like Rift were ok financially I guess). You sound like Itzena saying "why do you want another EQ you can just play Vanguard". Think about that.

SOE's involvement could be any number of things really... Could be Forgelight or other tech... Maybe scrapped assets from earlier versions of EQNext... They might even publish Brad's MMO if conditions are right. Who knows? But given Brad & Smed's history, I think it's safe to assume the two companies will have some kind of relationship.

SoE has licensed both the Storybricks and the Voxel tech from seperate companies so it won't be either one of those. Seriously doubt Smed would just hand over any art assets or their non-voxel Forgelight engine because SoE spent time and money on those and handing out tech to competitors free of charge is just stupid. I just don't see SoE willing to accept monetary loss no matter how much Smed and Brad like each other. SoE has just come out of yet another round of Layoffs so I seriously doubt Smed will be willing to do anything significant for free. My thought is something along the lines of "loaning" Brad a couple of Devs like they did back when they were collectively trying to push Vanguard out of their sphincters.

Skanda_sl said:

SoE has licensed both the Storybricks and the Voxel tech from seperate companies so it won't be either one of those. Seriously doubt Smed would just hand over any art assets or their non-voxel Forgelight engine because SoE spent time and money on those and handing out tech to competitors free of charge is just stupid. I just don't see SoE willing to accept monetary loss no matter how much Smed and Brad like each other. SoE has just come out of yet another round of Layoffs so I seriously doubt Smed will be willing to do anything significant for free. My thought is something along the lines of "loaning" Brad a couple of Devs like they did back when they were collectively trying to push Vanguard out of their sphincters.

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I don't see SOE donating any cash into this. I do see them using the tech and resources that were perhaps dedicated to EQ Next before it shifted gears.

If I were Brad, I'd be aiming for the legacy EQ market, and trying to make a real successor to EQ. SOE has put their eggs into the EQ Next basket, but they're smart if they have a deal to create a fresh new game similar to the original Everquest and allow Brad to use the resources they don't need. This gives them another option if EQN flops, or if Brad's game turns into a niche hit moneymaker.

SOE could actually 'sell' their stuff to Brad and actually make money from this Kickstarter thing, regardless of how his game turns out.

False competition, yo.

All the cool kids are doing it.

gogojira_sl said:

I want some real insight into what this Kickstarter money is going towards though. The most successful projects clear around $2 million and aren't nearly on the scale of an MMO and even those often have a hard time keeping within budget. To raise that much, you've got to have an Inafune or a Schafer name on the project.

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You can do an MMO on the cheap if you abandon all the modern trappings: bazillion quests (dev time), seemless world (dev time, art assets), flying mounts (dev headaches, animation assets). I can not find it - but I think somewhere it was posted that original EQ cost around 5 million. I'm sure someone with better search-fu can find it.

Let's assume Brad raises 2 milion in the kickstarter. 2 million is << 5 million. So if you're Brad, you plan on soaking people twice. $50 for your digital copy plus cloak of rainbow power and beta access. But instead of making beta free, you charge $9.99/mth for beta and tell people that'll go up to $14.99 at release. All you need is enough money to get to beta and you can then get monthly income from suckers like myself (assuming it is an old-school MMO).

tad10_sl said:

Brad's kickstarter is an ok (not good) test to see if there is sufficient money and interest. So it is worth contributing even though I agree he will probably fail.

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You my friend are going to be broke investing in shit that won't make it. Another reason I hate kickstarters, you should get stock in the company. You are technically a venture capitalist yet recieve nothing for your investment. The future company should guarantee you a share in their company when it gets moving.

I'd love if stocks were tied into a KS. Good way to get a company off the ground. Is that a KS rule or do people just not do it? I know Brad formed a company with this game.

As for the details of the project.. hopefully we know by the second week of Jan. I'm really curious about what he has planned.

Convo_sl said:

I'd love if stocks were tied into a KS. Good way to get a company off the ground. Is that a KS rule or do people just not do it?

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It's a limit imposed by the SEC that I believe dates from the market crash of 1929 and that was recently relaxed by the Jobs Act. But a platform like KS does not meet the criteria so they can't sell equities or profit share.

What you are looking for is AngelList SyndicatesHelp - AngelListand you can invest there.

Furious_sl said:

You my friend are going to be broke investing in shit that won't make it.

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Not at $50 bucks every five-to-ten years. Which seems to be how often we'll see an EQCloneKickstarter.

Edit: Which goes back to my point: it's better to throw some money at Brad's KS even though it'll probably fail then do nothing. Sitting around and spending another ten years complaining about the lack of a true EQClone seems pretty lame. Who knows, maybe third time will be the charm and Brad's gang will come up with EQ jr.

Seriously, if you are someone who wants to play a new EQ based MMO what the fuck else are you going to do? I still haven't seen an answer to this question. Do you and Erronious really think we should sit on our ass and bitch on this board for another ten years?

Mughal_sl said:

It's a limit imposed by the SEC that I believe dates from the market crash of 1929 and that was recently relaxed by the Jobs Act. But a platform like KS does not meet the criteria so they can't sell equities or profit share.

What you are looking for is AngelList SyndicatesHelp - AngelListand you can invest there.

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Yes, because 99% of them have tried the VC route and got laughed off. They usually don't have much of a buisness plan and have little to no chance of success.

tad10_sl said:

Not at $50 bucks every five-to-ten years. Which seems to be how often we'll see an EQCloneKickstarter.

Edit: Which goes back to my point: it's better to throw some money at Brad's KS even though it'll probably fail then do nothing. Sitting around and spending another ten years complaining about the lack of a true EQClone seems pretty lame. Who knows, maybe third time will be the charm and Brad's gang will come up with EQ jr.

Seriously, if you are someone who wants to play a new EQ based MMO what the fuck else are you going to do? I still haven't seen an answer to this question. Do you and Erronious really think we should sit on our ass and bitch on this board for another ten years?

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Yep. I view this, The Repopulation, Star Citizen, Pathfinder Online, Black Desert my last shot(s) at MMOs. If none of these pan out to my liking I will be playing and modding Skyrim forever, going back to military strategy gaming and playing the few good rpg single player releases that come every year.

I think MMOs and I are likely done. Coming from what I call the golden age of MMOs and having waited so long for something along those lines ... Perhaps time to move on. All I see is single player button mashing mindless garbage coming... Over and over and over, and for that experience single player RPGs are better IMO.