Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
Why can't a small dev team put together something like Eq1 updated? Every Dev doesn't need to be making industry standard, you get paid big when the game is done. During development you get paid 40-50k a year and do it more for the passion than the money. Once the game launches your pay goes up to 120k and you can relax. Obviously over simplified but the point is made. Get a group of core devs together and they all share interest in the company. They all get paid very little over the 3 year cycle and that goes up when it launches. I dunno about you guys, but I can live easily on 40-50k a year (and did years ago) and that's for the household not just single worker.

How many core devs does it take to put something like this together? Let's say that if 5 really passionate devs did this. 1 Idea/system, 2 coders, 1 lore, 1 artist/graphic. Is that enough? I dunno. 5 guys each getting paid 50k a year for 3 years = 750k in salary then whatever assets and legal junk. I don't see how Pantheon needs 11 million. It was supposed to be a small scale game.

It boggles my mind that a group of indy devs can't get this to work. Maybe there really just isn't any interest in this kind of game.

Yes I know my math is terrible, my assumptions are poor and my grasp on reality is weak
smile.png
 
spronk

spronk

FPS noob
23,364
27,241
its a numbers game problem, frenzic. yes a small team could definitely make a small time MMO, likely college students who can live dirt cheap while doing other freelance work. The problem is instead of 1 game taking 3 years, they could instead make 10-20 small indie/mobile games in that same time. Even if 8 of the games suck and 1 breaks even, maybe 1 will be a smash hit that makes a lot of money and gets your little studio bought. Putting all your baskets into a single game however is super risky. There are a few small indie MMO kickstarters out there, most have failed to get funding but the few that did will probably never get onto anyone's radar.

Pipeline is also a problem, an MMO has so many moving parts that small changes have drastic ripples. A small single player game can decide everything up front, do a quick prototype, and then each team member can go off and do their own thing with little interaction for long periods of time. The art guy can be months ahead of the level designer or engine guy and everything works out at the end. Can't really do that in an MMO, small tweaks have massive ripples that could require everyone to redo almost everything.
 
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Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,230
288
kudos_sl said:
I don't really get why people think only certain classes could solo. I was soloing on my warrior during hell levels when I couldn't find a group. It took forever but champions are made from adversity.
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Kedge Keep soloed to 50 on my warrior before Kunark came out. Six lancers at the entrance, one at a time, then bandage to full wearing a Rubi BP to help out. Was some of the best XP in the game in vanilla if not the best. Kedge ZEM was 140 IIRC. Pretty sure I was the first Myrmidon (lvl 55) on any server largely down to Kedge. Leveled an Enchanter and a Cleric to 50 also there by the time Kunark launched and used them to boost the Warrior from the day Kunark launched.

And Holy Shit were you a pariah if you boxed back then. You'd have had an easier time if you were a child abuser than admitting to boxing. My guild thought I was trash for doing it but then as I got closer to being the first 60 they started rallying around. Of course in years to come being able to box an Enchanter and a Cleric for raids was gold. Every leading guild needed a half dozen boxed Clerics on standby for raiding.


55 was sweet back then as a Warrior. Defensive was bugged/broken when it launched - you got the defensive boost but none of the drawbacks it was supposed to have.
 
E

Elidroth_sl

shitlord
350
0
Frenzic_sl said:
Why can't a small dev team put together something like Eq1 updated? Every Dev doesn't need to be making industry standard, you get paid big when the game is done. During development you get paid 40-50k a year and do it more for the passion than the money. Once the game launches your pay goes up to 120k and you can relax. Obviously over simplified but the point is made. Get a group of core devs together and they all share interest in the company. They all get paid very little over the 3 year cycle and that goes up when it launches. I dunno about you guys, but I can live easily on 40-50k a year (and did years ago) and that's for the household not just single worker.
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I think people's conception of what a game dev actually gets paid is rather skewed. Coders can make good money like you described, but designers and artists? Good luck. Don't believe the Full Sail or Art Institute bullshit numbers. They're just trying to sell you their education package and could give a crap about what's actually out there when you have to actually work in the industry.

Make no mistake, creating an MMO is hard. Especially one that has to satisfy all the requirements people say they need. EQ alone cost $8 million to make in 1996 (took 3 years to develop). That's around $12.5 million in today's dollars just accounting for inflation. It actually took about 40 people to make EQ1. You say you want EQ1 updated. Updated how? Visually? That's a lot of art asset creation time. That's $$$. Modern engine? $$$. And so on, and so on.
 
kudos

kudos

<Banned>
2,363
695
Elidroth_sl said:
I think people's conception of what a game dev actually gets paid is rather skewed. Coders can make good money like you described, but designers and artists? Good luck. Don't believe the Full Sail or Art Institute bullshit numbers. They're just trying to sell you their education package and could give a crap about what's actually out there when you have to actually work in the industry.

Make no mistake, creating an MMO is hard. Especially one that has to satisfy all the requirements people say they need. EQ alone cost $8 million to make in 1996 (took 3 years to develop). That's around $12.5 million in today's dollars just accounting for inflation. It actually took about 40 people to make EQ1. You say you want EQ1 updated. Updated how? Visually? That's a lot of art asset creation time. That's $$$. Modern engine? $$$. And so on, and so on.
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EQ in Unity... is it possible?
 
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Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
Elidroth_sl said:
I don't know how much work it would take to do the back end server architecture, but I'm sure it's doable. Which reminds me.. I really need to spend some time learning Unity. Lots of fun little things I could do with that..
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Less Unity more Progression Server. Now that's a fun hobby!
 
Denaut

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
Elidroth_sl said:
I don't know how much work it would take to do the back end server architecture, but I'm sure it's doable. Which reminds me.. I really need to spend some time learning Unity. Lots of fun little things I could do with that..
Click to expand...
Worth learning. We use it and it has many advantages.
 
Vandyn

Vandyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
3,656
1,382
Elidroth_sl said:
I think people's conception of what a game dev actually gets paid is rather skewed. Coders can make good money like you described, but designers and artists? Good luck. Don't believe the Full Sail or Art Institute bullshit numbers. They're just trying to sell you their education package and could give a crap about what's actually out there when you have to actually work in the industry.

Make no mistake, creating an MMO is hard. Especially one that has to satisfy all the requirements people say they need. EQ alone cost $8 million to make in 1996 (took 3 years to develop). That's around $12.5 million in today's dollars just accounting for inflation. It actually took about 40 people to make EQ1. You say you want EQ1 updated. Updated how? Visually? That's a lot of art asset creation time. That's $$$. Modern engine? $$$. And so on, and so on.
Click to expand...
I agree, I'm sure something 'EQ like' in an updated engine is doable but all of that costs money. Pantheon has actually proved that if you don't have some capital up front to get the ball rolling, the odds of getting something made are virtually nil. Manpower, server infrastructure, support staff, etc., is a big deal. MMORPGS are huge projects and unlike single player games, required support staff constantly to deal with issues (billing, in game, GM's, etc).
 
G

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
Elidroth_sl said:
I think people's conception of what a game dev actually gets paid is rather skewed. Coders can make good money like you described, but designers and artists? Good luck. Don't believe the Full Sail or Art Institute bullshit numbers. They're just trying to sell you their education package and could give a crap about what's actually out there when you have to actually work in the industry.
Click to expand...
The only issue is it's easy to find coders in offshore locations dirt cheap. The nice advent of broadband and video conferencing has removed most obstacles to hiring there if one is a smart small startup. Plus, no benefits. Gotta love the global economy.

'Designers' really are just glorified project managers, in my outside the industry opinion. I've talked to a bunch of them and I have yet to see what they actually bring to the table. They are like liberal arts majors pretending to have real marketable skills. Every time I see one post I get this vibe, which is the same thing I get from Mcquaid:

 
Muligan

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,233
908
Frenzic_sl said:
Why can't a small dev team put together something like Eq1 updated? Every Dev doesn't need to be making industry standard, you get paid big when the game is done. During development you get paid 40-50k a year and do it more for the passion than the money. Once the game launches your pay goes up to 120k and you can relax. Obviously over simplified but the point is made. Get a group of core devs together and they all share interest in the company. They all get paid very little over the 3 year cycle and that goes up when it launches. I dunno about you guys, but I can live easily on 40-50k a year (and did years ago) and that's for the household not just single worker.

How many core devs does it take to put something like this together? Let's say that if 5 really passionate devs did this. 1 Idea/system, 2 coders, 1 lore, 1 artist/graphic. Is that enough? I dunno. 5 guys each getting paid 50k a year for 3 years = 750k in salary then whatever assets and legal junk. I don't see how Pantheon needs 11 million. It was supposed to be a small scale game.

It boggles my mind that a group of indy devs can't get this to work. Maybe there really just isn't any interest in this kind of game.

Yes I know my math is terrible, my assumptions are poor and my grasp on reality is weak
smile.png
Click to expand...
I'm pretty shocked that someone hasn't taken an engine like Unity and developed an updated replica of EQ Classic. I know I would play it but not sure who else would or even how long. I would like to see EQ Classic remade with a couple of new ideas. I know some friends and I have discussed it but no one has the time and honestly, there's less of a following than you think at least in terms of longevity of the game. It would be a guilty pleasure for most and stroll down a nostalgic road and not that there is anything wrong with that but you have to consider the work involved and then what the return will be. If I was retired and had others that were in the same situation, I would do it as a bucket list but again, i'm not there.

We've discussed recreating EQ with Unity and adding some cool features but it would probably never really fly. I think more people would enjoy it if they would give it a try but the market is saturated the competition already (EQ Emus) already have people's time and investment. Not to mention the copyright issues.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
Project management is an honest to god skillset, but man you NEVER need more chiefs than indians.

There is even something to be said for that rare individual who you can't quite quantify exactly what they DO, but you notice the lack when they're not involved.

But that is NEVER 2/3 of your entire group.
 
Convo

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
Tyen is building EQ in unity...


So today there is supposed to be a meeting with Brad, Tom and some of the team members... Last I heard anyway. Not sure what would come from it tho. I'm guessing they will pitch Tom taking over the business/finance end, but I'd imagine it's too late. Then again, if they show up, they might be open to a compromise.
 
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