Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm sick and tired of sprinting through dungeons at breakneck speed. I just won't do it again. Its one thing to do say, LDON. But when dungeon sprinting became all the thing is when I became totally disinterested.

Quaid_sl said:

So, I've been thinking about dungeons recently... And my experiences at WoW launch vs. Kunark/Velious era EQ, and then later in EQ2 & Vanguard.

I think it's safe to say the days of static camps + pulling are over. That was an emergent gameplay mechanic that the EQ devs never intended for. It arose because of certain ability mechanics (lull, FD) in concert with loot distribution methods (named spawns on predictable timers separated by trash)This was illustrated in EQ2 + VG when, while dungeons remained uninstanced, players ran through dungeons to their 'completion', or simply ran around them over and over clearing all spawns, in a similar fashion to WoW's instance runs.

Anyway, if you played these games, my question is this:

If players aren't going to do the pull/camp technique, and are going to dungeon crawl anyway, are large social dungeons even necessary? What did they add to the gameplay experience besides waiting in queues at the zone line (+social interaction) and potential trains (+danger/risk)? Would it not be preferable given these conditions to just run instanced dungeons to their completion, which means loot/hour was more predictable, and encounters could be designed more intricately?

Which do you think is more valuable to the gameplay experience?

I'm leaning towards well designed instances...

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People roamed these dungeons due to player vs mob power disparity being far less than it was in EQ and downtime being what it was. Also the fact that pulling was an actual thing and simply aggro'ing the wrong mob could mean certain death without fd to reset it (the mob who sits above the pit in HS West is a good example of this).

Convo_sl said:

It's hard to have the dungeon design conversation with the limits on funding.. I prefer outdoor dungeons and a lot of them..big ones that scale 10 levels at times. This also takes time and cost lots of money:-(.

Btw.. Static camps were fun for a lot of people.. I enjoyed them.. Not sure they are gone forever if the game does utility classes well.

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I dunno man... EQ2's dungeons were similar to EQ. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I was in a static camp in that game

Heallun_sl said:

People roamed these dungeons due to player vs mob power disparity being far less than it was in EQ and downtime being what it was. Also the fact that pulling was an actual thing and simply aggro'ing the wrong mob could mean certain death without fd to reset it (the mob who sits above the pit in HS West is a good example of this).

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Oooooh that's a really good point. I'd +nets you but.... Ya know

Quaid_sl said:

I think it's safe to say the days of static camps + pulling are over.

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Couldn't disagree more. I spent a ton of time pulling in VG - it depended on the dungeon or outdoor area. Tomb of Lord Tseng was a run-to-the-end dungeon. Karrus Hakrel was a pulling dungeon. It's all a matter of how the designers design the dungeon/area and what's more efficient. With respect to static camps - in KH, for example, the best camping was to rotate between the large room with the giants (upper), Jarru (lower) and slimes (across the way). ToLT was a run through dungeon because of slow respawn and just the way it was designed (elevators between levels, yada, yada). OTOH, the outdoor area of Karrus Hakrel didn't have any good camping areas that I recall, whereas TLT outdoor area had the wood area against the wall/mountainside where I could pull wolves and etc. to the group.

What I will say is that players are much more efficient these days and know a lot more about how to game the game - you can see that in the Progression servers - so if you're going to make a camping dungeon it's got to be large to allow for players to draw from multiple static spawn sites (e.g. the KH example where our one group took what would have been in 1999 terms 3 different camp sites).

Rhinohelix_sl said:

Something else I have to mention, and with zones it should be in issue but I want to be on the record as saying this: NO POP-IN MOBS. You should be able to see everything at a distance, not have generated or unseen/slow loading content suddenly appear. This is one thing that really broke by back in VG beta about the game. Running what felt like alone through fields, then when you stopped or slowed down, the fauna would load in, much to my surprise and chagrin.

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You pretty much have to have "the magic bubble" in a seamless world game. Sadly it seems to be ridiculously small in most games, WoW especially. A one mile far-clip plane is kinda pointless if you can only see mobs 100 yards away. ;(

But yeah, back in EQ you could see everything in the zone which was cool. It was slightly exploitable though because IIRC "/tar name" would target any mob in the zone so maybe there should be a way to prevent that.

Quaid_sl said:

I dunno man... EQ2's dungeons were similar to EQ. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I was in a static camp in that game

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Heallun and Tad covered everything I could really add but the Devs can still create good pulling dungeons.

yeah. im inclined to say pulling and static spawns are a tactical gameplay design players like more then dislike.

Ok maybe camping isn't 'dead', but it would certainly have to be specifically designed for. The point is, why? What are the benefits to this kind of dungeon experience?

Quaid_sl said:

Ok maybe camping isn't 'dead', but it would certainly have to be specifically designed for. The point is, why? What are the benefits to this kind of dungeon experience?

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There are pros and cons but ultimately it puts a microscope on community.. So it does promote community.. Through camp steals, trains, etc.. Also added that heightened awareness to a zone bc of trains

Quaid_sl said:

Ok maybe camping isn't 'dead', but it would certainly have to be specifically designed for. The point is, why? What are the benefits to this kind of dungeon experience?

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It's fun. It's not something I want to do all the time, every day, in an MMO, but it's fun to have a static pulling group and just shoot the breeze for a couple of hours while gaining XP. It is something that was lost in WoW.

*shrug*

Ya those were pretty much the only arguments I could come up with for public dungeons, and I didn't find them all that compelling. I mean... You sacrifice a ton when you ditch instancing, including encounter design complexity and development time/money...

I enjoy static camps btw especially when camping bosses/named with my friends. We clear the rooms until the boss pops or whenever we get bored and decide to check the other nameds/boss in the dungeon or just leave the dungeon.

I don't want dungeons designed to be "consumed" in one session. I also despise the idea of resources regenerating super fast (which is why all other MMORPGs you see people roaming in dungeons killing things left and right) I think part of the fun was the fact that you had to "crawl" a dungeon and then when you reach the spot you like you just camp (for a more resource efficiency mood) and started clearing things for your boss/named/goal.

I think the whole point of the MMORPG I want to play is a dungeon crawler (dungeon CRAWLER not dungeon sweeper) where we need to rest/regenerate our resources every other room. I want huge non-linear dungeons consisted of several levels with hidden traps and secret passages. These dungeons have their own lore and secrets we can learn about when we spend weeks delving in them. THAT is my game, this is what I want to do. I don't want to do quests, I don't want to clear linear pathways. I don't want action/twitchy combat. I want to Role Play my bad ass Dark Elf Shadow Knight with friends delving in dark forsaken castle kicking door after door shouting at my wizard EVACUATE!! when things get nasty.

Class Roles. Resource Management. Huge Dungeons. Less "quests"/errands. More Freedom. Dangerous Experience and harsh death penalty. Just to name a few.

Quaid_sl said:

*shrug*

Ya those were pretty much the only arguments I could come up with for public dungeons, and I didn't find them all that compelling. I mean... You sacrifice a ton when you ditch instancing, including encounter design complexity and development time/money...

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Its fun isn't a good argument?

I think what we've seen is the new ideas and mechanics that have been released in the past decade just don't retain players and its not interesting or fun. I think, and I'm certainly not speaking for Brad, but this game is going to be somewhat of a throwback to the things that were fun. Brad has already done it twice, I'm guessing he won't try to reinvent the wheel and do what he does best.

Quaid_sl said:

*shrug*

Ya those were pretty much the only arguments I could come up with for public dungeons, and I didn't find them all that compelling. I mean... You sacrifice a ton when you ditch instancing, including encounter design complexity and development time/money...

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Instancing: limits spawn competition and increases the rate at which players eat through content (bad).
Instancing: usually means smaller raid sizes and avoid the fire raiding (bad).
Instancing: limits groups helping other groups (bad).
Instancing: leads to cookie-cutter dungeons (bad).

So let's agree to disagree.

I'm cool with instancing in very limited circumstances to solve very specific problems: such as LOTRO-style class quests to get X ability - you don't want to have every Shaman having to camp the same non-instanced spawn to get his Phoenix pet or WTF. That's just annoying. Or including one instanced wing in an otherwise non-instanced raid zone to prevent total cock-blocking of raiding by an uber guild. Or, most obviously, having public instances of starting zones at release to prevent uber-lag. Otherwise, avoid instancing.

Merlin_sl said:

Its fun isn't a good argument?

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I seriously challenge the notion that the camp/pull days were 'fun'.

I never found it fun sitting at the Velk's zoneline for 2+ hours waiting for a group. Nor did I find it fun feeling like once I did get a good group, that I couldn't leave for 3-4 hours because I may not get another decent xp opportunity that day. It certainly wasn't awesome sitting in the same spot for hours on end, not being able to afk for half an hour to eat with my family...

The only really fun thing about the EQ dungeon experience was the tension that sometimes arose when another group was nearby, and the smack talk in /ooc when a rival guild group was in zone...

Quaid_sl said:

I seriously challenge the notion that the camp/pull days were 'fun'.

I never found it fun sitting at the Velk's zoneline for 2+ hours waiting for a group. Nor did I find it fun feeling like once I did get a good group, that I couldn't leave for 3-4 hours because I may not get another decent xp opportunity that day. It certainly wasn't awesome sitting in the same spot for hours on end, not being able to afk for half an hour to eat with my family...

The only really fun thing about the EQ dungeon experience was the tension that sometimes arose when another group was nearby, and the smack talk in /ooc when a rival guild group was in zone...

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ProTip: People have different definitions of what's fun.

Easy solution. Have a mix of camping dungeons, run-through dungeons and non-dungeon quests you can progress. There are certainly many days, particularly during the week where I've only got an hour to spare and camping wouldn't be an option - I could just find some mobs to grind for XP for a bit, or continue some solo quest, or etc. If I've got two or three I can look to do a run-through dungeon. And if it's Friday Night and I've got a bottle of wine look for a camping group and just hang out and bash the 49'ers or Cowboys (well if it is NFL Season).

This is not an either/or decision AFAICT.

tad10_sl said:

Instancing: usually means smaller raid sizes and avoid the fire raiding (bad).
Instancing: leads to cookie-cutter dungeons (bad).

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I don't understand how these two points are related to instancing at all. Please elaborate.

"A modern, group-focused mmo-game", if it wasn't Brad developing this i would automatically assume a game with a strong focus on instanced dungeons designed for 1 group right through and including endgame... maybe even something like Neverwinter (essentially a lobby-game).