Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
Thoughts on Darkness ? ( to Brad or others here ) - I would like to see darkness matter again. Either for different zone/mob behavior or perhaps more importantly immersion... Any game I play that leverages darkness ( dark souls, The Last of US etc ) really has me want darkness to come back to MMOs. DDO used darkness a bit ( not enough imo ) but I would like to see it return ...

thoughts ?
Interesting from a mechanical perspective, but being able to alter gamma on a video card level has made making games truly dark on the PC a challenge. Battlefield 2: Special Forces had serious issues with that. Once EQ became a game that could be run in a window rather than fullscreen (and thereby being limited by in-game gamma rather than desktop / video card gamma) night would've been impossible to maintain had they wanted to in everquest.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
All of those things are in spite of the game, not because of it.

Downtime in a game is good if one is forced to sit in the same spot for hours and hours. The problem is that design isn't that appealing to most of us anymore.

It's subjective, but 35 minute dungeon runs are far better than 6 hour camps that give one plenty of opportunities for breaks for me.
The magic of EQ was how the sum of its parts created more than a game, it created an atmosphere that encouraged socialization. People would log on even if they had to go to work in an hour just to chat with friends or talk to guildmates. I don't believe that "that design isn't that appealing to most of us anymore". Everyone since EQ/WOW have sped the game up more and more and more to the point its a sprint to the finish/log off. Companies have really struggled to retain players even though the general belief was that people did not like the slower paced gaming.
There is a place for the 35 minute dungeon runs. I had a blast doing LDON runs. But they were more like fast food or eating Twinkies. While its fun for 35 minutes, I'd much rather chill in KC pulling the hand room for 3 hours. As with anything, you can't limit yourself as a developer to limiting players to to few options. The 35 minute dungeon runs were not ment to support an entire game, but to many companies put all their eggs in that basket and have failed, one, after the other, after the other.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,531
594
That sounds fine to me. Problem is they won't be very social since you will have to worry about fast respawns.
I think you are underestimated the speed at which people can type or talk. Plenty of time to chat while the puller is pulling a room to the group.

@Convo there are things I'd prefer to see, that I can live without: EQ Combat (no OT/DT) instead of VG? I can live with that. Quests giving XP? Okay. But instancing will kill the game for me - save in those few exceptional circumstances (release day, very special class quests, to avoid total cockblocking at the raid level). It's the main reason modern MMOs are so deadly dull, no matter how much flash and sparkle they add to their encounters or mobs instancing turns an MMO into a single player game.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,531
594
please God no instances. they go against the very nature of an MMO.
+1

rrr_img_55858.jpg
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,503
1,151
Go play P99 and race to endgame, its not fun. Its as not fun as racing to endgame is in WoW or FFXIV or any game. EQ wasnt fun because the game made you sit and enjoy the scenery, it was fun because thats how most of us played the game back then before we realized that the way to maximize your progression was to ignore all that and get to max level.

P99 is actually a good case study for what you should expect if you remade EQ today, and alot of it kinda sucks.

BTW the reason people race through dungeons today is because the games reward dungeon completion, you get points for finishing or you get points(loot) for killing bosses. Which means you either run through to the end as fast as possible or move from boss to boss as fast as possible. XP is also usually tied into those things too, wow gives the big chunk of xp for finishing not for killing mobs in the dungeon like EQ did.

People blame instancing for alot but really the only thing non instanced dungeons is responsible for is people sitting still because of overcrowding. All the other stuff is other design decisions the devs made that really aren't directly related to instancing itself.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
I would like to see dungeons that have multiple ways to get through them. You can get across that broken bridge if someone in the group has the ability to levitate, if not find the way around. You can go through that door if someone can pick the lock, if not go around. You can navigate those tight corridors if someone can disarm the traps, if not go around. Problem/puzzle solving would be quite nice for a change.
Yes, navigating dungeons is yet another lost feature... I would really like to see as you said classes given abilities used to navigate dungeons ( levitate, invis, trapfinding etc ) and have content to support it... it need not all be about combat.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
Interesting from a mechanical perspective, but being able to alter gamma on a video card level has made making games truly dark on the PC a challenge. Battlefield 2: Special Forces had serious issues with that. Once EQ became a game that could be run in a window rather than fullscreen (and thereby being limited by in-game gamma rather than desktop / video card gamma) night would've been impossible to maintain had they wanted to in everquest.
Not sure i understand... I know gamma, but who messes with gamma ? I assume areas are lit in certain ways and one way is with ambient light.. thus a reduction in ambient light and having light come mostly from real lights you have darkness.. Not sure if you mean someone can bypass it by modifying the gamma ( i think thats ok too ).
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,231
11,376
Interesting from a mechanical perspective, but being able to alter gamma on a video card level has made making games truly dark on the PC a challenge. Battlefield 2: Special Forces had serious issues with that. Once EQ became a game that could be run in a window rather than fullscreen (and thereby being limited by in-game gamma rather than desktop / video card gamma) night would've been impossible to maintain had they wanted to in everquest.
yeah after playing Darkout, vs Starbound/terraria. or Diablo etc.
Darkness can have its place. and can be done well. but often, its just more oppressive and annoying then actually a good mechanic. It often will just make the game ugly and will just make the game tedious. like weight and food systems generally do.

Darkout's dark mechanic basically prevents the game from ever being as visually interesting as Starbound/terraria. it also gets in the way of free creativity in building, to some degree.
 

Chesire_sl

shitlord
331
1
Go ahead and put in non instanced dungeons , people will "role play" as assholes. Making toons that are good at griefing just for the hell of it.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,503
1,151
Darkness is actually a far dumber mechanic than food or exposure type mechanics. Play skyrim with frostfall and realistic needs, you can't cheat other than by turning them off with the console. But all those darkness mods are easy to cheat whenever they get too annoying.

Personally I would rather see an mmo try out exposure and needs than one that tries to bring back darkness.

People also need to realize that no instancing only serves to gate content because of overcrowding and a small boost to community because trains and a very small amount of groups meeting and briefly working together. All that other bullshit about running to the end of dungeons or not talking to anyone is not caused by instancing.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
Thoughts on Darkness ? ( to Brad or others here ) - I would like to see darkness matter again. Either for different zone/mob behavior or perhaps more importantly immersion... Any game I play that leverages darkness ( dark souls, The Last of US etc ) really has me want darkness to come back to MMOs. DDO used darkness a bit ( not enough imo ) but I would like to see it return ...

thoughts ?
Darkness is very important for any Role Playing Game in my opinion. I think when it's dark your vision MUST decrease. You shouldn't be able to see the exact same distance at day and at night. Some races have it easier than others true and some spells might make darkness less dark to your eyes otherwise you're going to need a light source.

Count me in for the darkness idea.
 

Dahkoht_sl

shitlord
1,658
0
It's possible that people need to realize some truly like the virtual world feel, as in one world ,and not instance #34 dungeon, nor East Commonlands 4. Dungeon X is "crowded" or area Y is then go to another fucking area. Everything shouldn't be available all the time for everyone. Gated content because it's crowded is ok. Contested content is fucking OK and fun for some.

And yes , darkness needs to be in also. It's part of the world feeling.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,776
8,260
I'd love to know how many people advocating zero instance use have a level 60 toon on p99.

I'm betting 0%.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
Interesting from a mechanical perspective, but being able to alter gamma on a video card level has made making games truly dark on the PC a challenge. Battlefield 2: Special Forces had serious issues with that. Once EQ became a game that could be run in a window rather than fullscreen (and thereby being limited by in-game gamma rather than desktop / video card gamma) night would've been impossible to maintain had they wanted to in everquest.
I remember once in a game there was a fog effect which was amazing. If you use this fog effect to block your vision based on your racial/stats/lightsource/buffs then that would be great. It's basically completely covers anything from you in distance X (where X is how your character can view his surroundings).

So, It's not about gamma setting if done that way.
 

Harfle

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,055
69
Darkness is very important for any Role Playing Game in my opinion. I think when it's dark your vision MUST decrease. You shouldn't be able to see the exact same distance at day and at night. Some races have it easier than others true and some spells might make darkness less dark to your eyes otherwise you're going to need a light source.

Count me in for the darkness idea.
who the fuck actually role plays?
 

Tol_sl

shitlord
759
0
I'd love to know how many people advocating zero instance use have a level 60 toon on p99.

I'm betting 0%.
I think a lot of the people who are talking about instances mean the style of dungeon that instancing has brought, rather than not allowing any instancing at all. That's why I try and specify "scripted instances". If not, I don't know how they can be so die-hard, because I remember times in Guk when there were more people in the dungeon than mobs left alive.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
who the fuck actually role plays?
My bad. Screw role playing in an RPG.
Treat it as a game mechanic. You want to view 30 yards ahead in a dark room? You need your wizard to cast that light spell.

I find it fun and don't confuse this with Skyrim darkness because that darkness is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about view-distance based on your character's ability to see + buffs + light source...etc.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,531
594
All that other bullshit about running to the end of dungeons or not talking to anyone is not caused by instancing.
No. Instancing pretty much requires that kind of behavior. You have two options either you have a super loot/xp pi?ata (if you allow boss mobs to respawn so you can keep killing them) or RNG loot treadmill (kill all mobs then you have to go out and respawn the instance and run through it again if your item didn't drop). WoW opted for #2. The not talking comes from the fact you have no time to talk when you're running through the instance as fast as possible to get to the few Boss mobs you care about on this run, because you have all done the fucking instance 30 times and the X drop has never dropped for you.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,531
594
I think a lot of the people who are talking about instances mean the style of dungeon that instancing has brought, rather than not allowing any instancing at all. That's why I try and specify "scripted instances". If not, I don't know how they can be so die-hard, because I remember times in Guk when there were more people in the dungeon than mobs left alive.
Again, that's not a problem for Pantheon because Brad & Co really need to slow down the leveling/gear curve anyway they can or people will run out of content. Vanilla EQ wasn't really that big. Progression servers knocked out the content in 10 (ten) days, IIRC.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
276
It's actually interesting, because December 2013 saw the second highest number of projects funded last year. One could assume then, that there were in fact more pledges made, but at significantly smaller amounts.

I'm pretty sure we can bank on Pantheon getting funded no matter when it launches... It'd just be nice to see it funded with as many stretch goals as possible... And that means launching at a time when people are flush with cash.
Meh, I'm betting the only reason last december is such a difference is star citizen. Concluding from that, I think while there is a small influence depending on the timing you pick, it doesnt make too much of a difference. The decision wether something gets funded is based on the kickstarter proposal, how solid and interesting is the concept.



Remember the early EQN leaks? With Enchanters having to find tombs and wizard needing to find some of their spells in the world.. I definitely want that to be in. I'm not saying decapitate a class by withholding it's best spells but I loved that a lot of class spelled were found adventuring in the world. It did a lot for the economy too.
I loved that. I had nothing but a list of spells from w??o??w??h??e??a??d? some site that pre-dated Allakhazam for my enchanter and where to get them and was determined to travel to Highkeep and Neriak at lvl8 to buy them. With no idea where those places were or even how to get off Faydwer, it was quite the journey even with looking at some zone connection lists and maps.



I really feel like by this time we can come up with a more organic solution to advertising quest opportunities than an actual visual cue. The voice-over system from early EQ2 could have been a good system for this kind of thing (it wasnt, it was actually just annoying). Short of actual voice-overs requesting help (budget) maybe make interacting with NPC's an integral and easily accessible part of the game. EQ did this, to a degree. I recall spending a lot of time running around hailing everyone just to see what was going on. Mind you, part of that was ignorance to the genre but I imagine a system could be created to facilitate the same result.
What was bad about in EQ2 (didnt play)? In GW2 npcs sometimes run up to you or adress to direct you to events taking place, or merchants just ask for mercenary escorts in chat and you can talk to them to start the event. I liked how that was handled, it was immersive and not intrusive at all and you might actually feel bad for not helping the little girl lost in the cave you're passing through (P.S. Brad make her start sobbing if the players continue their planned direction instead of helping).



Also on the grinding vs quests ,I've mentioned before , make some sort of slight bonus to long standing mobs to encourage exploring mixed with grinding. As in if it's in your level range , off in some far off corner that folks haven't gone much/lately and it hasn't been killed in a while double the xps for the mob. Would make traveling around everywhere and simply hunting different mobs encouraged as much as questing along any sort of path or set grinding camps. (note I'm not asking for fast leveling in any way , just seems like a simple system to code in to add a little bonus to the explorer types)
Totally in favor of that. Apply it to every mob in the world, and if someone wants a fast track they can go kill the rarely farmed dorf guards at the shore for mucho xp and the cost of their dorf standing.



I think this illustrates an overlooked , but important part, of one of the reasons many of us enjoyed EQ so much that seems minor at first but isn't. The rails and "helpful" systems over the years have basically been destroying the "you're in our world now". There is little to no "world". The map/GPS system is just one example.

Having to actually remember landmarks or POI , see the direction the sun is setting to get your handle on east/west and which direction Qeynos is and so on is something I'd much, much prefer over fantasy-world with drone accuracy GPS.
I think there is no need for a gps mini map. It's an immersion-killing convenience item and nothing else. Give players a compass. Make cartographer one of the professions so players can create their own maps as they explore a zone, or buy one off a cartographer that has made that effort. This suggestion adds immersion, content and player interaction instead of convenience.



@??? The person suggesting different paths for a class. I'm pretty much against anything that smacks of specs or talent trees. I wasn't a fan of the three types of Shaman in VG or three types of Monks etc - It never worked, they were never really balanced against each other and it was a lot of extra work for limited return. If you're a class you should be able to get everything available to that class - though it might require drops for spells, quests for the class epic, etc.

Now since there is an exception to every rule: I'd make one for Clerics who maybe get one - and only one - special blessing (curse) related to whichever god/ess they're following, just to make that choice meaningful.
That's kinda unfair though, what about paladins? Or beastmasters all being stuck with a bear, while mine really wants a warthog? What I do not want is talent trees you spec back and forth, but the game should have TONS of ways for you to keep advancing your character outside of items. AAs, faction, having done quests for specific abilities like the dragonsbane spell or a special monk attack only taught by that reclusive grandmaster, and so on.



So, I've been thinking about dungeons recently... And my experiences at WoW launch vs. Kunark/Velious era EQ, and then later in EQ2 & Vanguard.

I think it's safe to say the days of static camps + pulling are over. That was an emergent gameplay mechanic that the EQ devs never intended for. It arose because of certain ability mechanics (lull, FD) in concert with loot distribution methods (named spawns on predictable timers separated by trash)This was illustrated in EQ2 + VG when, while dungeons remained uninstanced, players ran through dungeons to their 'completion', or simply ran around them over and over clearing all spawns, in a similar fashion to WoW's instance runs.

Anyway, if you played these games, my question is this:

If players aren't going to do the pull/camp technique, and are going to dungeon crawl anyway, are large social dungeons even necessary? What did they add to the gameplay experience besides waiting in queues at the zone line (+social interaction) and potential trains (+danger/risk)? Would it not be preferable given these conditions to just run instanced dungeons to their completion, which means loot/hour was more predictable, and encounters could be designed more intricately?

Which do you think is more valuable to the gameplay experience?

I'm leaning towards well designed instances...
Instancing should only be used for very specific story purposes. Not to simply multiply the availability of the Best-in-SlotT loots. GW2's instancing of outdoor content is extremely flexible but used rarely (pretty much only during personal story steps and rarely during the living story chapters). I would like something similar - their dungeons are standard WoW fare though so pass on that. If you put repeatable loots in an instance then make sure accessing it is limited. Example, take Sebilis upper floor as it was, but make the crypt door the entrance to an instance. Instead of (or in addition!) to needing someone that can use lockpicks or a knock spell you can find the keys as uncommon drops from all krups.

"A modern, group-focused mmo-game", if it wasn't Brad developing this i would automatically assume a game with a strong focus on instanced dungeons designed for 1 group right through and including endgame... maybe even something like Neverwinter (essentially a lobby-game).
This is an interesting observation. Here's a related question to Brad: Is Pantheon going to be an RPG and putting a focus on that, or just an MMOG? Do you place value on immersing the player in a fantasy world that makes sense within it's own rules?

The difference to me is that a game valuing the rpg part places emphasis on consequence of actions and a wide variety of character development choices that are permanent. If the focus more towards the MMO dungeon experience then open world, persisting features outside of your own character all take a step to the background, and even the character development choices are usually all reversible (i.e., WoW and today I'm a male Horde Orc warrior on server A, $30 later I'm a female human warrior on server B; class changes for $20 coming soon!).

Edit by Deaegan: Don't post like an asshole.