Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Heallun

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,100
1,073
I'd love to know how many people advocating zero instance use have a level 60 toon on p99.

I'm betting 0%.
I am. It's about smart handling of servers, though, and providing enough interesting content at all levels as well as enough gearing options, even if limited. One non weapon non raid droppable haste item in classic everquest was obviously a huge problem. Same thing with one tank sword (ssoy) being so vastly on top prior to raiding. There are certainly ways around this and I think someone who has experienced it as close as McQuaid can handle it. The fact of the matter is, if there's an instanced equivalent with a short lockout of a particular item, it makes the non-instanced equivalent irrelevant and with it the entirety of the non-instanced world.
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
My bad. Screw role playing in an RPG.
Treat it as a game mechanic. You want to view 30 yards ahead in a dark room? You need your wizard to cast that light spell.

I find it fun and don't confuse this with Skyrim darkness because that darkness is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about view-distance based on your character's ability to see + buffs + light source...etc.
Yes !

I think the difference is this...

walking in a room and having that whole room lit up, or looking in corners and having mobs in those corners... have mobs attracted/repelled to/from light in some cases, have mobs not see light in some cases... mix it up... then navigation and light are a BIG deal...

Imagine walking through 1000 undead with a wizard in the middle of the party shining a light that keeps them at bay... ( think gandalf lol ).

Just saying again, there is a lot more than just combat when doing dungeons and it can make the experience more interesting if you add things like darkness.. or say dungeon alerts.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,765
617
I'd love to know how many people advocating zero instance use have a level 60 toon on p99.

I'm betting 0%.
But I've played games with both kinds of group content and I still prefer outdoor dungeons. It boils down to not being able to run the dungeon/camp you want when you want. That's the biggest downside.. Is that your biggest concern? Or is it more you want chances at named/loot which is increased in an instance dungeon?
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,503
1,151
No. Instancing pretty much requires that kind of behavior. You have two options either you have a super loot/xp pi?ata (if you allow boss mobs to respawn so you can keep killing them) or RNG loot treadmill (kill all mobs then you have to go out and respawn the instance and run through it again if your item didn't drop). WoW opted for #2. The not talking comes from the fact you have no time to talk when you're running through the instance as fast as possible to get to the few Boss mobs you care about on this run, because you have all done the fucking instance 30 times and the X drop has never dropped for you.
Fast paced buttonsmash combat is what causes no talking and people to bolt around the dungeons, along with the fact that nothing respawns. Think about walking into lguk with a group of level appropriate characters. The zone is empty, making it effectively the same as an instance. Is there any scenario where you bolt from boss to boss or PH to PH playing it like its a WoW dungeon? Pretty much no, right? Thats cause the behavior is caused by game mechanics other than the instancing.

Lack of instancing could force you to stay and camp when you might otherwise not through overcrowding, but the reason for camps in EQ was generally not because of that overcrowding. And if you instanced those old EQ dungeons people would have played them almost the same as they did without instances. The major difference would be you would have 5 groups camping the highest value target they could handle rather than one group doing it and everyone else filling in where there is a camp open.

I guess there is an argument that part of the effort required to get an item like an fbss is finding the camp open and instancing eliminates that, but it also eliminates all those impossible to solve overcrowding issues that non instancing causes. Lets not forget that if we want a large world and slow travel overcrowding is an even bigger issue since its harder for the population to move around.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,765
617
Don't forget that some camps were just better xp and players didn't want to leave that location.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,776
8,260
But I've played games with both kinds of group content and I still prefer outdoor dungeons. It boils down to not being able to run the dungeon/camp you want when you want. That's the biggest downside.. Is that your biggest concern? Or is it more you want chances at named/loot which is increased in an instance dungeon?
Neither. It's a matter of not enjoying the sit/pull/camp style of dungeon 'crawl'. It's not a crawl at all. Do I prefer the social aspect of public dungeons? Of course. Do I recognize uninstanced dungeons allow for better loot flow into the world economy? Absolutely.

Unfortunately, my 15th run of Stratholme was far more enjoyable than my 15th hour camping The Ghoul Lord.

Honestly, I think some people are being stubborn just for the sake of it, because nobody here is retarded enough to actually think EQ's system was optimal.

Think about standing in EC... It's a good day so it takes you about 30 minutes to put a group together. The Cleric is leaving a group in Mistmoore and is bound in Gfay. He has to get a port (Because fast travel is for casuals, right?). Cool, whatever, this is EQ and we are hard as fuck. 45 minutes later the group zones into Lguk. It has been 1.25 hours already.

Camp check. Everything camped except BR. Move to bedroom, endure a couple trains where the enchanter you grabbed died both times. He's pissed and logs. It's now been 3.0 hours and you've gained 1-2 blues of xp. Frenzy camp opens. Guildie Ench is LFG and is now en route. Wait another 30 minutes. Ench arrives, and tank is still afk at zone line. Wait 10 minutes, then spend 10 minutes clearing to camp. Break Frenzy, it has now been 4 hours since you logged in... And now you have to wait for the RNG to pop the named... Goodie.

This was NOT uncommon.

I want nothing to do with that shit. It has nothing to do with difficulty, and everything to do with primitive design. Yes there are social benefits, however, I don't think they outweigh the absolutely oppressive conditions these systems create.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
Neither. It's a matter of not enjoying the sit/pull/camp style of dungeon 'crawl'. It's not a crawl at all. Do I prefer the social aspect of public dungeons? Of course. Do I recognize uninstanced dungeons allow for better loot flow into the world economy? Absolutely.

Unfortunately, my 15th run of Stratholme was far more enjoyable than my 15th hour camping The Ghoul Lord.
I'd like to hear some of your ideas. You have told us in great detail all the things you don't like about early EQ, so tell us how to improve upon them, or tell us what you do like about early EQ/Vanguard.
 

Muligan

Trakanon Raider
3,231
901
I can't believe people advocate instancing... I've posted this a thousands times and I still believe that instancing is a contradiction to the genre. How can you be immersed in a world that is separate from the world itself. The whole point of an MMO is to exist in a world that is occupied and being changed by the players. You may as well play Diablo or a console RPG that is built either for you or your group of friends. It's a Massive Multi-Player Online game right? Its not that massive if we all segregate into small groups for our crawling pleasure. I know an open world comes with frustrations and several inconveniences but why would you buy a game where thousands or even million of players exist if you didn't want to deal with them?

If the game is good and I have to compromise with a little instancing, sure I will... who am I to dictate based on my preferences but it will factor into my decision to purchase if the game heavily resides on instancing.

Furthermore, something really grinds my gears is instant travel to an instance. I see no point to a world if I can sit in town, hit a queue button, and poof be teleported to dungeon just for me an a random group of people from 4 different servers. Do I dislike LFG tools? Not at all but I do dislike working around the world and the social aspect that comes with it. If the tool wants to bring me together with other people within my server that's fine. However, I want to pack up, travel, and meet somewhere. I also want travel to be meaningful. I want it to be nearly to the point that I would be better off to travel with someone, even if it is part of the way. I don't know how many times in early EQ, I paid a Bard to run me and some friends to Qeynos to FP or vice versa. I've paid for invis, SoW, and a number of other spells to aid in my travels and that was a really important part of the game for me.

I thought EQ even did well with teleporting. It took some of the pain out but I still had to run and even get buffs to get from one place to another. If you are looking for instant gratification, then I feel you are playing the wrong genre. Again, all my preference and opinion.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
instancing is a contradiction to the genre. How can you be immersed in a world that is separate from the world itself. The whole point of an MMO is to exist in a world that is occupied and being changed by the players. You may as well play Diablo or a console RPG that is built either for you or your group of friends. It's a Massive Multi-Player Online game right? Its not that massive if we all segregate into small groups for our crawling pleasure. I know an open world comes with frustrations and several inconveniences but why would you buy a game where thousands or even million of players exist if you didn't want to deal with them?
Nailed it. You can pretty much boil down the entire instancing argument to this one statement.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,765
617
Neither. It's a matter of not enjoying the sit/pull/camp style of dungeon 'crawl'. It's not a crawl at all. Do I prefer the social aspect of public dungeons? Of course. Do I recognize uninstanced dungeons allow for better loot flow into the world economy? Absolutely.

Unfortunately, my 15th run of Stratholme was far more enjoyable than my 15th hour camping The Ghoul Lord.
That's just a preference tho.. doesn't hurt you chose one of the better instance dungeons as your example..=p I'm not going to pretend that I was always happy trying to get a camp/group but it's all part of the game. I think we just disagree here. To me, part of a large, breathing world are outdoor dungeons.. they should go hand and hand. I'd like to see them take the design to another level(pardon the pun) by having dungeons do unpredictable shit like spawn dynamic content to mix shit up and cause chaos from within. Say players are just spanking the bosses or the repops are being killed as soon as the spawn.. Have the dungeon open a wall/portal and summon some harder mobs and fight to reclaim the zone.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
Guild halls have become yet another example of a genre killer. Yes, its extremely convenient to have everything you need right at your fingertips in your guild hall. Hell in my EQ2 guild hall I purchased everything I could possible afford and jammed it in there. But again, it allows people to hide out in their guild hall, then port nearly directly to the zone I want to play in, which of course is instanced, then when I am finished, I port right back to my guild hall. Don't have to speak to anyone, don't have to pay for a port, don't have to run at all, don't have to contact a crafter (I'm a level 95 crafter)....there is no reason whatsoever to send a tell to a single person outside of my guild. The genre is basically eating itself alive with these design decisions.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,776
8,260
That's just a preference tho.. doesn't hurt you chose one of the better instance dungeons as your example..=p I'm not going to pretend that I was always happy trying to get a camp/group but it's all part of the game. I think we just disagree here. To me, part of a large, breathing world are outdoor dungeons.. they should go hand and hand. I'd like to see them take the design to another level(pardon the pun) by having dungeons do unpredictable shit like spawn dynamic content to mix shit up and cause chaos from within. Say players are just spanking the bosses or the repops are being killed as soon as the spawn.. Have the dungeon open a wall/portal and summon some harder mobs and fight to reclaim the zone.
Ya, and its just a preference to like vanilla ice cream over pube flavoured ice cream.

Ya, great, dynamic dungeons. Love the idea. Maybe bosses have multiple spawn locations with shared loot pools, and mob density changes based on zone population. That'd be awesome, and would negate the need for instancing.

Just don't tell me camp & pull was a good system. It fucking wasn't.
 

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD
<Gold Donor>
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Some people are quoting P99 as some sort of useful point against the old design (open, non-instanced, etc). What they're forgetting is that it's not at all the same, since every nook and cranny, mechanic, anything and everything about the game was 100% known at that point, by anyone and everyone. And if you didn't know, you could hop onto any one of many websites and immediately know it.

Which leads me to something I'd like to see in my ideal MMO (could be this one?). Lack of information. I'd like to see a game that doesn't allow DPS meters, exact damage/DPS of skills, attacks etc is not simply spelled out for you in a tooltip, and where the online "community" is nothing like what Blizzard does with WoW, for instance. What this means is, the designers will not simply lay their entire game bare for you to see the inner workings.

-DPS meters: I like floating combat text, and if that's able to be used while still disallowing any kind of DPS meter utility (at least in-game), then great. I don't think, though, that damage should read out into a chat log, allowing for easy parsing. I'm sure the hardest-of-the-core will find a way (possibly via third party programs) to parse their damage, and fully optimize shit. But this should NOT be so easy as simply installing a small UI mod, thus making it the norm (like WoW). Fuck spreadsheets, I want to be able to play a game and notfeellike I can't occasionally cast Fire Blossom because it's fun and looks sweet, even though spamming Ice Spike is optimal dps.

-Skill tooltips: This idea is a bit less fleshed out, but basically I liked how EQ's method of basically telling you dick shit about your spells resulted in buying, scribing, memorizing, and then just fucking trying it and seeing what happened. My first class was a Mage, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was going on with the bolt spells for awhile. Sometimes they'd just not hit shit (got intercepted by geometry or something). There's nothing wrong with that. When I learn "Flying Tiger Pouncekick" on my Monk, it shouldn't tell me that it does exactly 631-710 damage. I should end up using what I like because it feels fun, looks cool, and hey some big(ger?) numbers popped up. Giving complete information divorces you (good term) from being invested in your skills as a player. You just learn the skill, read that hey, this skill will be better than my previous skill, and never use the previous skill again. This is all done by reading numbers, and completely circumvents what I was talking about. Bad. Also, it allows for usage of inefficient skills/spells without any immediate mental ramifications, and that's fucking good. Also, I don't mind not knowing the EXACT effects of stats or whatever comes off my gear. The moment you do, you are reduced to only ever wanting what your spreadsheet says is your best gear, and fuck that. I want to actually enjoy the items I find, even if they're sub-optimal.

-Online community: Blizzard's method of responding to the unwashed masses constantly is absurd. They have absolutely no handle on what is actually NECESSARY for them to do. They seem to think that by engaging the average idiots at all times, and (entirely too often) bowing to their wants and whines, that they'll retain more subs. Nope. By listening to a bunch of idiots who have no fucking clue how to design a game that's actually fun, you end up just throwing a bunch of shit into (or out of) your game with no real thought as to the ramifications on your overall cohesive design. People will whine, it doesn't matter how good or bad your game is. That's people, it's what they do. Stop fucking listening to it, and just design your game like you (hopefully) know how to do. This ties in to the lack of information angle by removing a ton of the extra crap that Blizzard throws out there for their players to know. They really don't need to know all that shit. Exploration is a key feature of games like this, and it's not limited to just physical exploration of landscape. It also has to do with exploring the mechanics and other stuff that Blizzard just spells out for their playerbase every day via their "blue posts" and other such nonsense.


Oh, and one last random thought that popped into my mind as I was ranting about Blizzard's methods of communication. For the love of god, do not constantly rebalance your game every goddamn fucking patch. I swear, at this point WoW is version 117. It's nothing like it was originally, in ANY aspect, and it's not like it's just WoW 2.0. It has gone through WAY too many iterations, and classes/etc (classes being the worst offender) have changed so fucking much, it's pathetic. Pick something and stick to it, with only minor changes. It's totally ok if not many people play your Necromancer class, or if your Ranger class doesn't do much damage compared to others and sucks at tanking, or whatever. SOME people will still play those classes, and they'll likely love it even more because of that. I know the rangers in my guild loved their class, despite them being a community joke. Minor tweaks here and there are fine, but I swear to god, I'm done with games that constantly rebalance everything every fucking patch. FUCK!

/post
 

Seananigans

Honorary Shit-PhD
<Gold Donor>
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Also, what Muligan said about travelling with someone brings up a good point. If you let them, people will play these games for ALL SORTS of reasons. So give them reasons to do it. I know a ton of Druids, Wizards, Bards, etc who would just exist to facilitate other people's convenience via ports, selos, SoW, etc. Some people just like doing that. Fucking let them, it creates an awesome game.
 

Rogosh

Lord Nagafen Raider
897
232
I hate the exclamation points but the old system sucked as well. If a NPC needs something accomplished, why aren't they trying to get people to do it? I think there should be wanted posters, maybe a NPC who hovers around your trainer needing your specific skillset, or even a guy hawking his needs at the local tavern or market square. Quests should also make sense. Why in the world would a quest-giver reward you armor for squirrel asses? Who has 2000 pieces of that lying around just waiting for those valuable squirrel asses?
As a joke they should add squirrel ass epic shield quest to the game, with a Chance to proc a pride of undead squirrels that attack EVERYONE.
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
Also, what Muligan said about travelling with someone brings up a good point. If you let them, people will play these games for ALL SORTS of reasons. So give them reasons to do it. I know a ton of Druids, Wizards, Bards, etc who would just exist to facilitate other people's convenience via ports, selos, SoW, etc. Some people just like doing that. Fucking let them, it creates an awesome game.
Note: When I couldn't find a group I'd sit outside KC and port people around. Was a blast, met a ton of people who I would later end up grouping with, and made enough coin to buy spells and gear. When POP killed us Druids and Wizzys porting, it took away a huge part of the game.
 

Melvin

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,399
1,168
But the quest giver doesn't just want any old squirrel pelts, he wants 9000 albino squirrel pelts, and ofc albino squirrels are a 1 in 1000 rare spawn.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,776
8,260
Note: When I couldn't find a group I'd sit outside KC and port people around. Was a blast, met a ton of people who I would later end up grouping with, and made enough coin to buy spells and gear. When POP killed us Druids and Wizzys porting, it took away a huge part of the game.
Agreed. Each class should have a 'service' ability that they can sell to other players.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Instancing: Depends on the game. If the world is big enough to spread people out and you have multiple areas of efficiency, you can do it. If you have popular spots, all you're going to be dealing with is assholes with autohotkey scripting mob targets (assuming tagging mechanic). If you run a game with smaller server sizes, but more servers, you don't need isntancing, but if you increase the population of your world, the greater the concentration of people, the more you need isntancing.

Then again, you're advertising a game as a hardcore modern mmo. That could mean that you could be competing for "keys" or something like that where you can bring that into a seemless instaned area. Thingk SWTOR story areas. If someone in your group has a key, then you can enter that area and participate in whatever boss fight or event.

To get the really interesting events or fights, you really need to gate it off or you're just going to get griefers. Unless that's something you want and you're making a pvp game which is another story.

If you're making a PVE game, you need some version of the above whether its full instanced or partial. If you're making a PVP game, then let people fight for shit.

--

I'm all for making a game where classes don't have sifferent specs (as in Rift or WOW). I'm not ok with zero respecs though, but I would be completely fine with making respecs either expensive or something you need to go out and get (quest, dungeon, drop etc). The reason is because online games that constantly evolve with nerfs and buffs can never force people to have permanent specs.

If you're making classes with a set of abilities and no other customization, then your game is going to be boring anyway. I don't think a game that has no way to differentiate yourself from others of the same class can be considered Modern. People love theorycrafting.

Leveling speed should depend on what your game is. If you can make an interesting game, leveling can take whatever. Personally, I think you should do away with levels and manage character progression with another metric. Story line, gear, achievements, zone progression, world progression. Make your "level" mean that you consumed the most content. Or soemthing.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,531
594
Unfortunately, my 15th run of Stratholme was far more enjoyable than my 15th hour camping The Ghoul Lord.
I'd much rather camp a mob for 15 hours than run Stratholme or any other instance 15 times. I ran UBRS 30 times for the Alchemy potion before I said fuck it and soon after said fuck it to WoW.

I don't understand you or @creslin. You prefer instances, great, there are a shit-ton of modern MMOs with instances and complex raiding - Rift, WoW, FFXIV. You are advocating that Brad & Co. create a game to compete with currently existing AAA titles when they can't possibly compete on money or quality or breadth of play.

The only advantage Brad & Co. have that might possibly allow their little project to succeed as a kickstarter and as live game is if they build a game that uses mechanics - such as non-instanced content - that we can't get in other modern MMOs.

So on a fundamental level going with anything that smacks of WoW or Rift or EQN is death for Pantheon. That means instancing, super-hybrid classes (focused on dps), switchable classes, quest grind, lots of loot, etc, are terrible ideas for Pantheon because they're already readily and cheapily available elsewhere (or will be soon-ish in EQNL/EQN).

/aside

I of course would suggest that Brad & Co. have zero instancing in the game on any level for any reason.

However, I recognize that with the limited raid content likely for the initial release and with the heavy lag on day one I understand why they might consider limited instancing (e.g APWish public instances with lockout timers) for the raid content and some kind of temporary multi-zone instances for first day or two of live. I actually have fun in overcrowded zones - such as day one on the progression servers, struggling to get that one kill when you're competing with fifteen damn mages with pets. But given VG's history (50% left game before hitting level 3 or 4) I am pretty sure Brad is going to insist on some way to reduce release-day lag ;-)