Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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goishen

goishen

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EQ was a mess when it tried to decide what to be. Raiding game? I suppose. Grouping game? I suppose. Efficiency game? I suppose. Lore game? I suppose. It did all of those things at best at about half efficiency. And before you say, "Well, you put all those things together, and it works!" No, it doesn't.

It's functional, but that doesn't mean that it works. EQ is the machine that you kicked whenever it got a little wonky and out of control.
 
BoozeCube

BoozeCube

The Wokest
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An MMORPG should be a fucking video game of D&D where the game world is the dungeon master that's probably what most would want. You can play it with a group of friends with a little flexibility to who is in your party. Not sure how we get there without better AI.
 
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mkopec

mkopec

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goishen said:
EQ was a mess when it tried to decide what to be. Raiding game? I suppose. Grouping game? I suppose. Efficiency game? I suppose. Lore game? I suppose. It did all of those things at best at about half efficiency. And before you say, "Well, you put all those things together, and it works!" No, it doesn't.

It's functional, but that doesn't mean that it works. EQ is the machine that you kicked whenever it got a little wonky and out of control.
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It was a grouping game at its core, and i bet that like 80% of those that played it never raided it hardcore at least. They kept on adding more and more raid shit as time went on but It was a group game at its core and the content it offered up was catered to mostly group content.
 
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Jarek

Jarek

Molten Core Raider
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goishen said:
EQ was a mess when it tried to decide what to be. Raiding game? I suppose. Grouping game? I suppose. Efficiency game? I suppose. Lore game? I suppose. It did all of those things at best at about half efficiency. And before you say, "Well, you put all those things together, and it works!" No, it doesn't.

It's functional, but that doesn't mean that it works. EQ is the machine that you kicked whenever it got a little wonky and out of control.
Click to expand...

EQ was like the MMO prototype, and I agree they had no idea what would actually work or in which direction to take the thing they had created. They were literally making it up as they went along. Reminds me of early automobiles: Do we use a steering wheel or these levers, wooden wheels suck oh hey rubber works, steam powered or internal combustion?

It was a great prototype though. The foundation was solid, the actual moment to moment gameplay was fun and addictive, but it all needed refinement and better management.
 
Dullahan

Dullahan

Golden Knight of the Realm
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Some aspects of EQ were more prototype than others. In the early days, they had a handle on what it was supposed to be content wise. It was a group game with some raiding and limited soloing.

Being an online game used to mean something. Mainly, the focus was creating ways to play a game with other people. Pressing the need for cooperative play also created a sense of community, which in turn kept people playing. Raiding was fun, but less personal and never that appealing to a lot of people.
 
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Identikit

Identikit

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I feel like the problem with making a good mmo is the corporate investment element. You have a bunch of creative people, trying to make something according to their idea of that concept, hedged against investors who aren't creative, and are just trying to ensure the return on their investment. Those investors see games, or concepts that are currently profitable and try to insert that idea into the game. EQ was great because the PC gaming, and mmo market was pretty much non existant, or niche at the time, and as we saw with WoW being released, the market was virtually untapped. So EQ is unique in the ways that it was experimenting, they literally had no concept of what the general gamer liked, so they had a lot more leeway with what they could and couldnt do. Velious was kind of the pinnacle of that idea, with massive player participation in raids, and that success was capitolized on as well in luclin, and PoP with even larger raids. That was scaled back after populations declined.

Once wow came out, which took only the convenient elements from EQ, every investor started looking for ways to recreate the hype, and addictive loop that WoW provided. After that boom happened, we got microtransactions slowly attached to games, while they really decreased content development in games. Now most mmos are a series of objectives, that is endless and pointless. EQ had none of this for a while, and its what keeps the game enjoyable, the fact that there can be purpose, or it can be purposeless at the same time in the game is what makes it great. There isnt a series of checkboxes, or linear progression like what most games force down your throat now.

EQ had objectives that only existed if you really explored things, or if someone told you about them, or you sifted through poorly made websites with usually broken documentation when it game out. This forced the need to communicate in the game. Obviously with the amount of data being scraped from mmos and games these days this isnt even possible anymore which is sad, because this element of what I believe is a kind of community lore, isnt really achievable in mmos anymore.
 
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mkopec

mkopec

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Jarek said:
There's definitely some nostalgia going on, but it's more than that for me. I was 30 in 1999 so it's not like I'm pining for the woebegone days of lost childhood, and I was old enough to have very clear memories of it all, so I haven't forgotten how it actually was. I just like that shit man.

Now I'm not saying there shouldn't be improvements here and there, like how WoW built upon EQ, but at some point you've got to say, "Look, we've made the Quality of Life less shitty, and we've got great bandwidth/stable servers, and we even made kill stealing and 24-hour spawn camps a thing of the past, and so on... but that's enough. We're not gimping the game anymore, so you need some skill, planning, and free time to go all the way to the top in this game and we're not giving in to the point of destroying what makes a multiplayer game actually multiplayer instead of soloing with others."

I'm not a Luddite or grognard, I just prefer a more traditional, challenging, group-centric style of MMORPG. The fact that Pantheon is the only one "being made" is fucking depressing, but here we are. I'm still not giving them any money until there's an actual, working game though.
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I agree man, I was 26 with family in 2000 when I started playing and it was a brutal fucking game. I think It took me like a week to get to lv 10 or some shit. Then another 2 yrs to get to 50 something.

Perfect mix would be something like EQ 1999 having a kid with vanilla WoW, spitting out a kid you could play. Good for both hardcore and casual plebs like me.
 
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arallu

arallu

Golden Knight of the Realm
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So when does beta start:


Eh3gDLA.jpg
 
Kuro

Kuro

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Bats have over a billion HP and still only attack for 1-5 damage? That'll feel like EQ. ;)
 
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Muligan

Muligan

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Swagdaddy said:
it isnt EQ if it's fun before level 30
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So true... it felt like a totally different game around 20. It was such a big deal to get your surname lol. 35 and 49 were big levels as well as a cleric. I believe CH was 49 so I felt like I had finally made it and went on a Vox raid that night. Good times.
 
V

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Talking about levels reminds me of the three hell levels in Kunark during the 50s. Even though it was purely accidental as to why those three particular levels had significantly longer leveling curves, it was viewed by many as a pretty big accomplishment to see a player make it through them.

I remember hearing so much about level 51 sucking so bad but that Karnor's Castle was a good place to go for both XP and loot. Of course, KC was also known for some seriously awesome trains as well as being a raid zone for VS so it was a great place to hang out in. Fucking loved that zone!

For lvl 54, I remember grinding my way through it in Velk's Lab. Also good memories here too. Spiders were good but not great unless you got the top shelf area. Getting into a a kobolds camp group, either up top or in the pit, was always money though. Great XP and gems for plat. A bit scary since the pit was one way only. Really sucked if your grouped bailed and you got stuck down there.

For level 59, I killed no less than 10 million fucking sarnaks in Chardok. I ate, slept, breathed and shit that place for what seemed like an eternity to get through that damn level. When I finally dinged 60 in a group with some guildees, it felt like a huge fucking accomplishment. I saved that screenshot for a long time too.

To me, the fact I can remember this shit nearly 15 years later speaks volumes. I hope the Pantheon team takes a similar, more intentional approach to slow leveling because of the dynamics that come with it. I realize I no longer have the time or desire to grind XP for 5-10 hours like I did back then but I'm totally cool with that.
 
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