Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jan 28, 2017

Death was done well in Vanguard. There were altars all over the world so wherever you died, you would respawn at an altar not too far away. You could run back and find your tombstone which contained your gear and you would get some exp back, or if it was too much of a problem you could summon it to the altar. And if you were away from the game for a long time with a tombstone in the world, you wouldn't lose all your gear like EQ. Instead it would just all go to an altar and you could recover it whenever you get back. You could also consent people to drag the altar for you to help you recover it. Dying was just a minor inconvenience and cost you about 10-15 minutes of time. But if you died a lot you would lose a lot of exp and the minor item damage would add up to a chunk of cash too.

I think the only problem is that exp was too easy to get because there were a million solo quests and you can get whole levels doing that. In EQ losing a yellow bubble was terrible because it took a good solid group to get that back.

zzeris · Jan 28, 2017

Yeah, those are some great points and I agree. I definitely want some downtime in dungeons or forts, etc. Places where there is very significant challenge to any group. But regular grouping in the world shouldn't need downtime. Some of my best groups were a constant chain of mobs going down to a well-oiled killing machine.

The fears I have for this game are bugs, and server issues. Unity is powerful and the graphics are good enough. If a small game has issues staying online, or people are falling through the earth, or response time is really off, these are significant issues. As mentioned, killing snakes for 5 minutes isn't harder gameplay...it's just stupid. A harder game doesn't need everything to be hard. It just needs a realistic chance of dying to worthwhile mobs. I hope they put in massive world mobs like they always have. I enjoyed hearing the warnings and seeing a massive mob in the distance wrecking havoc. I definitely want some good quests and solo play though. It can be limited on both fronts but as Ukerric mentioned, it needs to be there.

wilkxus · Jan 28, 2017

zzeris said:
Yeah, those are some great points and I agree. I definitely want some downtime in dungeons or forts, etc. Places where there is very significant challenge to any group. But regular grouping in the world shouldn't need downtime. Some of my best groups were a constant chain of mobs going down to a well-oiled killing machine.

I agree about the well-oiled group however consider: would you want the well-oiled functioning to come from:

small satisfaction of some combination of group and class skill managing your mobs & area, pulls and consumable resources better?

Or have it handed by default on a platter because by design there is no downtime and it is basically WoW ez mode ?

A harder game doesn't need everything to be hard. It just needs a realistic chance of dying to worthwhile mobs.

I quite agree wrt difficulty. However might it not make things more interesting keeping at least a bit of two challenges, group/resource efficiency and mob difficulty?

Perhaps scale it up for dungeons, but keep a more minor challenge for easier areas. You could then provide an easier learning path for people to progress through (learning efficiency & mechanics) areas of progressively increasing difficulty to gradually challenge people.

Utnayan · Jan 28, 2017

wilkxus said:
Nicely put.
Especially in terms of realistic placement of Pantheon is niche!

Nailed IMO. Has the War Wizard learned his lessons of Sigil well? They (VR) had better not be cocky, but focus on core quality rather than complexity or volume of content.

My preferences design wise lean on the side of greater downtime and penalties provided they can evolve updated EQ like mechanics creatively to compensate for the punishing penalty aspects that 18 years later, simply will not fly otherwise. That will IMO require a tight money pinching FOCUS on:

producers to guide team to focus on Challenge and Journey aspects of gameplay (NOT endgame, leave that to wow this time around)

decent but SIMPLE game mechanics (no complex sh*t like in Crowfall crafting IMO)

decent interface & polish (simple core)

suite of SMART tools & analysis in the background for balancing: Class, Custom Itemization & group content

a solid code base & quality control framework ESPECIALLY since have a lot of NEW talent that prob needs guidance.

experienced enough coders to make it all float!

Unity graphics are fine, dont sweat the graphics too much for niche, they wont beat Black Desert, WoW did not give a sh*t either!

Without the above they will not be able to handle the predictably difficult but necessary balance tweaking and refactoring sh*t through beta and post release. Decent internal dev tools to make maintenance feasible for a small crew. MORE tweaking will be required for a game with deeper EQ type class mechanics. Doubt they have the time and $$ to incubate in Alpha/Beta as long as Blizzard or a big studio.

Is the BMQ War Wizard up to this task??? If not thats ok, but he had better have some help and advice from decent engineers to help with feasability evaluations and advice scaling down!

Which leads me to a set of serious questions for the the War Wizard's team. MMORPG graveyard is littered with try hards! Does the team have:

not just experience, design chops, talent, all clicking together.....

also B*LLS to implement the riskier EQ like challenge required to fill the niche?

and B*LLS enough to speak up if shit doesnt work as it should & insist it be fixed? Novices are often too shy to speak up!

Regardless of how many niche fanboys and fangirls they have now, the software sure as fook be easier to maintain and expand than Everquest was in 1999 because the years long honeymoon period that EQ had for years after release will not last more than a few weeks. Even less time than with Vanguard. None will play long enough to be addicted. EQ was just lucky people stuck around long enough to get addicted because other stuff sucked worse in those first few years.

Expect no freebies this time for Pantheon. The niche oldschoolers are desperate but JADED!
And with Convo gone.... the fans grow restless! We need FUEL for our fires!

Anyhow, /cheers for @Convo ! Take heart Convo, and worry not too much about risk of imminent failure, for career wise early failure is often a necesary blessing in disguise to learn from. And it is those early failures that plant the seeds of learning from which grow the foundations for greater success later! And seriously, do not be afraid to speak up and share your honest and FoHs jaded thoughts!

Best of luck and Pantheon on!!!!!

You know what dude? That's a good fucking post. Who the hell are you and how the fuck did you find this place?

I'll add that they put full effort on a workable UI and response mechanics. WoW is WoW because it's built from the ground up, and concentrated fully on the player experience when it came to control and response. Slice animations on player input. Period. Base CD's on integrated balance mechanics per class. Half the reason WoW is successful is because you don't have to flail through 56 "E" keys a week trying to open a fucking door like in the shitshow that is TESO.

Utnayan · Jan 28, 2017

Oh, and the only reason downtime works is when you are trying to create player interdependence. It's counter acted and forced. It's a genius way to get people to actually interact with others out of necessity.

Been this way since 1999. And as much as I know EQ was a shitload of lucky mistakes, this one I will give McQuaid credit for. You needed a class to get there quicker. You needed another class to take the damage. You needed another to heal your asses. You needed another to keep mobs from running away and bringing 45 of their frog buddies. You needed another to crowd control that shit. You needed the same to make sure you regenerated mana faster. You needed another to make corpse retrieval easier. You needed another one to go gather the mobs without bringing the entire fucking zone to your camp. It was fucking amazing in that regard. And that piece, aside from FD pulling, was intended.

zzeris · Jan 28, 2017

wilkxus said:
I agree about the well-oiled group however consider: would you want the well-oiled functioning to come from:

small satisfaction of some combination of group and class skill managing your mobs & area, pulls and consumable resources better?

Or have it handed by default on a platter because by design there is no downtime and it is basically WoW ez mode ?

I quite agree wrt difficulty. However might it not make things more interesting keeping at least a bit of two challenges, group/resource efficiency and mob difficulty?

Perhaps scale it up for dungeons, but keep a more minor challenge for easier areas. You could then provide an easier learning path for people to progress through (learning efficiency & mechanics) areas of progressively increasing difficulty to gradually challenge people.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. I want some really hard group content in every zone. I always liked seeing a variety of different mobs in a zone. I also enjoyed Kithicor Forest's way of changing the zone.There is so much they can do to vary the experience and I hope they do. I also liked that certain zones had lower level guards. It sucks having overpowered guards always available to save people's asses or that can't be killed by PCs. It was extremely fun to enter a new area and see piles of dead bodies nearby. "What killed them and should I run now?!" It was also nice to be able to kill sergeants, etc when you finally leveled up a bit higher or wanted revenge for them killing you so much. Make the freedom more like UO than what we've seen in the past decade.

BoozeCube · Jan 28, 2017

Do you want ball crushing noobie experience though? Because even though many people didn't make it past this shit it was very memorable even now.

Do you wanna go up to a guard accidentally hit the wrong button and he shit rapes your face?

Do you wanna be killing a bear and then this bitch rolls up on your ass and lets you know who's town you are in.

Do you want mega level raid mobs roaming around that you by chance run into who devours your soul.

zzeris · Jan 28, 2017

I do. I remember all that shit and it was fun. Gorenaire especially but I hated Holly immensely.

Dullahan · Jan 28, 2017

Part of the appeal of downtime is the challenge to play efficiently and eliminate it. It should be a goal achieved through class interdependence and smart cooperative play. It should not be the standard experience or allowed to any person soloing by chugging consumables.

Vinjin · Jan 28, 2017

Dullahan said:
Part of the appeal of downtime is the challenge to play efficiently and eliminate it. It should be a goal achieved through class interdependence and smart cooperative play. It should not be the standard experience or allowed to any person soloing by chugging consumables.

A hundred times this!

Downtime should seem long to the beginning player but should also decrease over time through leveling. The acquisition of better items, spells, and new abilities will obviously play a major role in not only taking on harder, more challenging mobs but also in more efficient killing/grouping. However, knowledge and understanding of class dynamics and player skill take the efficiency to a whole new level. And how reputations are created or destroyed.

EQ screwed up a lot of shit but it was amazing in this regard. And I totally miss this in today's MMOs. The real question will be, what is an accesptable level of downtime today?

infidel · Jan 28, 2017

downtime should not be "we just spent 5 minutes bludgeoning a normal wolf, we all need to sit down and eat/drink before we attack another wolf"

it should be "this next group has an Archer-type, a Rogue-type, a Warrior -type, and a healer...whats the best way for our group to handle this?"

the first is a forced mechanic, because apparently our group of well armed adventurers cant kill a wolf without being exhausted. the second is slow progress because of the need for tactical decision making. resource management is great, it adds an extra dynamic to the game. but it needs to be meaningful - CC'ing a mob, then damaging another, upkeep on the CC, thats actual tactics of a sort.the need to 'med' because you had the gall to use more than 2 abilities to kill that wolf is utterly stupid. obviously boss type fights should need better resource management, and require longer downtime after. the people that insist that others read their inane /group chatter between every pull will be why this game fails - if they arent the first to quit it, that is.

Xexx · Jan 28, 2017

Depends - if its just "dps this one down first!" then its boring and just like how wow dungeons are now. Id rather it be "CC this one and root this one and kill the other two!"

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jan 28, 2017

zzeris said:
The fears I have for this game are bugs, and server issues.

My only fear for this game is that the combat will be too easy. It was the only problem I had with Vanguard. Low levels were fun because you played with noobs who didn't know how to play and things went wrong and it was dangerous but exciting. But at high levels when you go to that castle dungeon (I forgot the name), we churned through the dungeon and nobody lost a single hitpoint. It was like everyone had godmode enabled, all mobs died in 2 seconds, just slaughtering from room to room, and we repeated it over and over because everyone had quests to get shit from there which meant we needed to do it multiple times and it was the most boring thing ever. I hated it. I cancelled my sub that day.

I think a big part of the problem was that SOE added such overpowered gear sets in the later years. I never saw the high levels with early gear, I am sure it was much better, but I still think it wouldn't have been good enough. I have done semi high level dungeons like Vol Tuniel with people playing in junk green and blue quested gear, and it still was far too easy and simple. I just don't like it when you go from room to room slaughtering everything and the whole night nothing eventful happens at all. Nothing makes me quit faster than that shit. The only reason I was so addicted to EQ is because most groups could easily end in a wipe from someone making a mistake, and loot was so rare it meant you had to camp everything 10 times or more just to get your 1 item before moving on to the next camp. The game was pretty harsh but that just made me determined to beat it, and that is what hooked me.

I am not sure Brad and Co have the balls or perspective to make something like that these days.

etchazz · Jan 28, 2017

I did like that Brad said he wanted to have high level mobs/dungeons in low level areas. That shit was awesome in EQ, and has been woefully missing in MMO's since. Separating everyone in the world by level groups is retarded. I liked that there were high level mobs wandering in low level zones (kept you on your toes). I liked having three different level groups in one dungeon, with an occasional raid mob at the deepest part. It's supposed to be a living, breathing world. Stop separating us like cattle.

Jarek · Jan 28, 2017

Yeah I remember getting wtfpwnd instantly by some uber mobs. I especially liked the sounds of crunching when you were being hit really hard.

The audio visual feedback cues were really good in EQ. When something critically hit you or whatever, the sound was that sickening bone breaking crunch, and when you were stunned there was that heavy reverb as you spun slowly in place. The screen went black when you were blinded, and that was a true WTF moment.

That shit seems so small, but that level of feedback really adds to the experience. Subtle audio cues and tight visual feedback to your actions can make a huge difference in the "feel" of gameplay. Like the sound of casting a mez and the visual hit was so tight, I could almost feel the spells being cast. You got to a point where you could tell when a mez was about to break by instinct, you could just feel it was time to recast, etc.

I hate loose, shitty-feeling gameplay, and much of that comes down to animation timing and audio syncing with the actions from keyboard to in-game results. Even auto attacking as a warrior "felt" good in EQ for some reason, but the spell casting was fucking amazing. It was just hitting one button to cast, but the overall presentation of that experience to the player was perfect.

BoozeCube · Jan 28, 2017

I think another thing that detracts a lot from these games is 3rd person. Looks like Pantheon is 3rd person anyways but EQ was meant to be played in First Person and it showed, sure from time to time you could go 3rd person view but it was clunky as fuck.

Pescador · Jan 29, 2017

I played almost exclusively in third person as a bard. Difficult to imagine pulling fear and swarm kiting without it. Plus I always liked watching my char get new gear.

On my warrior or paladin I would sometimes go first person though so I guess it depends on the role.

tyen · Jan 29, 2017

BoozeCube said:
I think another thing that detracts a lot from these games is 3rd person. Looks like Pantheon is 3rd person anyways but EQ was meant to be played in First Person and it showed, sure from time to time you could go 3rd person view but it was clunky as fuck.

3rd person is super annoying when in tight spaces. Took me a few days awhile ago to get the camera collider/collision right to zoom the camera in Unity.

Ukerric · Jan 29, 2017

Jarek said:
Yeah I remember getting wtfpwnd instantly by some uber mobs. I especially liked the sounds of crunching when you were being hit really hard.

There's a throwback to this in recent WoW. Highmountain has an area with harpies and bears that's used for quest and WQ, but has an elite boss-like Ettin walking around.

If you're squishy, and full health, you get 2 shot. If you're half-health or undergeared, you get one-shot. It's always funny because you can recognize the veterans. They arrive in the area, stop, and look for the giant. Once they spot him and where he's walking, they move in for the kills.

Oh, and he's not a quest mob, drops nothing, and respawns faster than the harpies around.

Pasteton · Jan 29, 2017

Eq was pretty much the last mmo where zone design was defined by 'lore' without really any attention paid to anticipated level of players or convenience of combat /pulling and other quality of life measures. This resulted in wildly varying levels of difficulty often in the same zone, and some rooms that were way harder to pull than others etc. but it did result in a more 'natural' feel to the zone , i.e. these mobs and this dungeon are here the way they are and you need to deal with it, rather than 'this dungeon layout and this mob spawn points are designed to cater to an intended and ideal combat experience'.

A lvl 38 mob in dalnir's (kly overseer) proccing ice comet, a nuke that could nearly one shot players higher level than it, didn't make sense from a 'that's not fair to the player !' point of view , but he procc'd it anyways cuz he was a badass, and it was fking awesome

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