Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

DickTrickle said:

I definitely think significant XP loss would be good, enough to give you pause in new areas and make pussies stay out of dungeons. While it slows down your leveling, you can still spend time playing the game in a fun way. Corpse runs and the time associated with that is not playing the game in a fun way, imo. I don't necessarily think they should be gone completely, but the weight should be towards punitive measures that still allow you to spend your time in fun ways (ie, killing shit and exploring).

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One has nothing to do with the other. Exp loss plays no role is my decision on where to play or explore, it's all about the loot. Exp loss is only felt if you lose a level and really only a minor stressor if you are close to losing a level in a shitty group, otherwise it's a barely an inconvenience unless exp gain is stupid slow like original hell levels used to be.

Reht said:

One has nothing to do with the other. Exp loss plays no role is my decision on where to play or explore, it's all about the loot. Exp loss is only felt if you lose a level and really only a minor stressor if you are close to losing a level in a shitty group, otherwise it's a barely an inconvenience unless exp gain is stupid slow like original hell levels used to be.

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This is why corpse runs were such an important part of the thrill. You can always make up exp, but the possibility of losing a year's worth of time and effort you spent acquiring all your rare loot was very real, and very daunting. If you didn't have the correct group balance, there were places you absolutely wouldn't go. It changes the way you plan your entire playtime because a CR could extend your game by hours.

That is what caused the real, honest-to-god FEAR that EQ instilled in its players. We all know it it's true, even though CRs are no longer even considered practical in modern gaming. That fear of corpse-loss, real loss, is what made the feeling of fear in EQ real.

Anyone here (Besides Tyen) have experience with Unity? Do we expect issues with Unity being used for a game of this scale?

Higher armor repair costs! (Just kidding)

EQ's experience loss, but limited-time rez was ok with me. Sometimes it was impossible to recover, and you just bit the bullet.

Death should hurt, and it should hurt in several ways, but it should also make sense in the context of the game. I like the idea of experience loss, temporary weakness, and relocation. Your soul is ripped from the ether and forced back in the mortal realm. You feel severely weakened.

You should end up at the closest anchor/safe space/whatever. Your experience can never be recovered, and you should have a flat 30% removed from all stats for 10 minutes.

A corpse will be visible for 3-5 minutes and allow for resurrection. Resurrection returns you to your body and eases the weakness you feel. (10% for 10 minutes) Dying while under the effect of weakness will not leave a corpse, and thus you cannot be resurrected again.

If they wanted to get creative, they could adjust experience loss based on the zone you die in. Anywhere from 1% to 10%. That would hit my sweet spot.

Zaide said:

Anyone here (Besides Tyen) have experience with Unity? Do we expect issues with Unity being used for a game of this scale?

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There really shouldn't be any issue at all. Granted I haven't used unity since 2012 or so, there can be some culling issues but not much that can't be fixed with LODs which.. it's an MMO I'm almost certain they'll be using. Rust is decently huge and that runs on Unity, showing unity can handle large scale pretty well. As for implementing all the systems they want to implement, that's more on them than it is on the engine.

Ukerric said:

Nope. That kind of penalty for X minutes means basically "today's play session is over". Your group isn't going to wait until the tank recovers from death, probably not until the healer can manage to keep the tank alive, and possibly not until you have your CC/DPS fully operational.

In a WoW-type LFG dungeon crawl, that's instantaneous group disband. It should tell you how bad it is for a group.

Any penalty that basically prevents you from playing for X minutes should be recoverable or preventable, and apply as the last resort for people/group who have messed up so badly, it's game over for today.

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Faster to find a new tank than to wait ten minutes for rez sickness? This isnt WoW. Youd need a player to run all the way to the camp and join up. It would almost always be faster to wait for rez sickness to wear off.

Even today in EQ a group will wipe and spend 20-60 minutes getting back to their camp without breaking up.

Ukerric said:

Nope. That kind of penalty for X minutes means basically "today's play session is over". Your group isn't going to wait until the tank recovers from death, probably not until the healer can manage to keep the tank alive, and possibly not until you have your CC/DPS fully operational.

In a WoW-type LFG dungeon crawl, that's instantaneous group disband. It should tell you how bad it is for a group.

Any penalty that basically prevents you from playing for X minutes should be recoverable or preventable, and apply as the last resort for people/group who have messed up so badly, it's game over for today.

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Honestly, I didn't think it felt harsh at all. There will always be a bit of time in which you need to recover, buff, or run back. Even if you are fighting with the penalty, you're at 70%-90% of your stats - not completely useless. You may have to go easy for a few minutes, require additional heals, or use a cooldown or two. The only time you would wait it out is if you're about to start a very hard encounter/boss where every little % counts.

I think you should strongly incentivize players to be careful. Dying isn't exactly easy on the body. You can always tweak the time of the debuff if it feels wrong.

Ukerric said:

Corpse/Item recovery creates a potential crisis point.

If your corpse is lost, you WILL ask yourself "do I want to play again?". That's what we call Crisis Points in gameplay, the moment where the player asks him/herself "do I still want to play", and the answer will - depending on other factors, like friends playing, etc - be "no" fairly often.

So, corpse loss is a bad idea, not from the game point of view itself, but from the game company's point of view. Allowing for a corpse loss means you are going to lose player/subscriptions far earlier than you would otherwise.

Doesn't mean you don't need corpse recovery. It means that there needs to be a mechanic by which the corpse recovery isn't fatal and does not lead to Crisis Point. Typically, the Temple system, where after prayers (and a 24h timer), your corpse pops. You have a choice: either you go after your corpse, or it's time-out, play an alt for 24h (or 48, if you want to be serious about corpse recovery).

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I agree with your statements about crisis points but it's not corpse loss that might compel players to quit. It's item loss, which is why I separated them out. In EQ's case, they happen to be the same thing but there are directions they could take with Pantheon that don't.

For instance, what if items are completely soul bound. Meaning, items go with you upon death and corpse recovery /rezzing is just an XP recovery mechanic? Would that be enough sting for people to still fear death or is item recovery a necessity?

And again as a general reminder, the point for folks to remember here is not to rehash what EQ did. The point is to identify what might work today in a game modeled after EQ.

Vinjin said:

I agree with your statements about crisis points but it's not corpse loss that might compel players to quit. It's item loss, which is why I separated them out. In EQ's case, they happen to be the same thing but there are directions they could take with Pantheon that don't.

For instance, what if items are completely soul bound. Meaning, items go with you upon death and corpse recovery /rezzing is just an XP recovery mechanic? Would that be enough sting for people to still fear death or is item recovery a necessity?

And again as a general reminder, the point for folks to remember here is not to rehash what EQ did. The point is to identify what might work today in a game modeled after EQ.

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Just exp loss will be largely irrelevant in my opinion. Maybe just having your items stay on corpse with no decay timer would be good.

Zaide said:

Just exp loss will be largely irrelevant in my opinion. Maybe just having your items stay on corpse with no decay timer would be good.

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But would that mean corpses never rot at all? I could see problems with that approach, including possible griefing.

Vinjin said:

So in EQ, they basically limited binding to cities only, which as you pointed out, can often be several zones away. That was indeed harsh, especially when you were naked.

But having the ability to bind anywhere or even at every zone in may be a bit too much the other way for my personal taste. Seems like there should be a middle ground in there somewhere.

It would also depend on if you were naked or not too.

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This was always an annoyance for me. Why was it melee had to bind in cities, while casters could bind relatively wherever the fuck they wanted? In Kunark, I especially remember being required to bind in FV and wiping as far away as Seb. That was a LONG ass trek back. Meanwhile, every caster / priest just bound themselves at the Orb at Seb entrance. I think there should be a unified rule going forward if CR is a thing.

I do think full naked CR was a bit harsh. I am not sure how that would go down with today's player base. Most of the discussion here has been about group deaths, which is pretty straightforward in itself. But I do remember hours upon hours long CRs in Fear / Hate. I remember stories of assist calls being made to other guilds to help recover and their guild wiped too. Now you have dozens upon dozens of people who have naked toons and can not do a thing in game. Too late and have to log? Well, it looks like you're not going to be playing the game anytime soon after. No one would be putting up with that shit today.

Lets not forget the ultimate extreme: Veeshan's Peak 1.0 where you had keys that were NOT soul bound! If you died and no one else was inside able to rez you? You're fucked. No GM intervention was allowed either. Corpse loss was very very real there.

The original warning:

We recommend that only the most advanced and organized players in the game even attempt to enter this zone.
The customer service staff (GMs and Guides) will not assist players in any way in regards to this zone.
This includes help for issues such as unrecoverable corpses (see your local Necromancer),
or characters finding themselves stuck (see your local Magician), bugs, etc.
- Gordon

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Vinjin said:

But would that mean corpses never rot at all? I could see problems with that approach, including possible griefing.

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What griefing could result? I mean you can't be corpse camped until your items rot, so that's a plus.

I'd say have a corpse summoner in major cities which will summon your corpse in exchange for some exp. That way you let the player choose do they risk it or do they eat the exp loss. Idk, I don't think EQ's system was bad minus binding as a melee and keys not being soulbound.

There's some psychology research out there that equates loss to further drive to play (gambling drive).

Zaide said:

What griefing could result? I mean you can't be corpse camped until your items rot, so that's a plus.

I'd say have a corpse summoner in major cities which will summon your corpse in exchange for some exp. That way you let the player choose do they risk it or do they eat the exp loss. Idk, I don't think EQ's system was bad minus binding as a melee and keys not being soulbound.

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Corpses have to rot. If for no other reason than to remove the asset from the zone. Otherwise, I could see players intentionally leaving corpses in zones to create extra lag.

I do think a corpse summoner mechanic of some sort is a good solution. Perhaps some restrictions or a timer before they can be summoned? And I agree that the price must be steep. Hell, make it require a player crafted coffin (as opposed to a vendor bought one) which helps drive economy the same way that clerics charged for rezzes, druids and wizards for SoWs and ports, etc.

I would have to say that the success of games without any serious loss demonstrates that it's not an overwhelming cause of addiction, particularly in MMORPGs. Not saying that it doesn't affect some people or even all to certain extent, but i am more inclined to believe that other psychological causes: perceived increased self-worth through in-game accomplishment, increased positive self-image, escape from reality, ability to build friendships, etc. play a larger role in peoples' desire to play MMORPGs as some research indicates.

Vinjin said:

Hell, make it require a player crafted coffin (as opposed to a vendor bought one) which helps drive economy the same way that clerics charged for rezzes, druids and wizards for SoWs and ports, etc.

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That's exactly the kind of creative problem solving we need more of. You're driving the player economy while providing players with a way to retrieve their own corpses without just handing it to them. Big thumbs up for that idea.

The issue is how do you pay for a coffin when your corpse is out there? I guess you buy them in advance and bank them?

Zaide said:

The issue is how do you pay for a coffin when your corpse is out there? I guess you buy them in advance and bank them?

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I built my own.