Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I can already hear the distant sound of rocking.

I wanna rock, ROCK!!!

Sevens said:

Pantheon Forums - Forum View - News and Announcements
And the team just keeps growing

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Rofl so their lore is being written by a lawyer now?

Tenks said:

Rofl so their lore is being written by a lawyer now?

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Wouldn't that make him a "Lore-yer"?

#heyooooooooo

Your avatar has never been more appropriate.

Lore-yer, excellent.

So I've been thinking lately about one of the most debated mechanics about this particular game - death, and was hoping to hear some discussion about what expectations should be for Pantheon. There's fuck all else going on right now in this space anyway so why not, right?

In EQ, and especially in early EQ, death had quite a sting, comprised of 4 elements:

1. XP loss
2. Naked travel from current bind spot
3. Corpse recovery
4. Item recovery

Note that 3 and 4 were essentially one in the same in EQ but they don't necessarily need to be that way in Pantheon.

I often see folks say that this model was a bit too harsh. So the question is, why? Which of these elements made it that way? Which elements would you like to see kept? Which would you prefer not be included in Pantheon?

Discuss.

One of the parts of experience loss that sucks is that it's way worse for some classes than others. A cleric dies and could 96% rez itself every time while other classes are screwed and begging/paying.

Vinjin said:

So I've been thinking lately about one of the most debated mechanics about this particular game - death, and was hoping to hear some discussion about what expectations should be for Pantheon. There's fuck all else going on right now in this space anyway so why not, right?

In EQ, and especially in early EQ, death had quite a sting, comprised of 4 elements:

1. XP loss
2. Naked travel from current bind spot
3. Corpse recovery
4. Item recovery

Note that 3 and 4 were essentially one in the same in EQ but they don't necessarily need to be that way in Pantheon.

I often see folks say that this model was a bit too harsh. So the question is, why? Which of these elements made it that way? Which elements would you like to see kept? Which would you prefer not be included in Pantheon?

Discuss.

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I don't know if the VR guys have made a statement on what their plans for death mechanics are, BUT

Death mechanics will be the "canary in the coal mine." For all their professed desire to make an "old school" EQ-like game, if we start seeing them walking back death penalties we'll know we are headed for another shitty WoW clone rather than an EQ redux.

For whatever reason, mmo devs just can't seem to grasp that some things in the game need to suck. Dying needs to suck.

XP loss in EQ sucked but I never found it to be overly harsh. Hell, I didn't even come to expect rezzes (and thus, XP recovery) until I was well into my 40s of my first character. I think class availability of rezzes fits well within the interdependence aspect of the game so I'd be very hesitant to see them change that. I thought SoE had that part right.

I think that issue is less about being able to rezz yourself though and more about making your corpse available for a rezz, which was significantly harder and the harshest mechanic, IMO, that I mentioned above - corpse retrieval. Getting your corpse in an outdoor zone wasn't too terribly difficult (unless it was a plane) but getting it from the bottom of a dungeon was a different story entirely. Sometimes, you also needed a dragger (i.e., rogue, monk, bard, necro) in addition to the rezzer, which meant coordinating multiple people for assistance and hoping they didn't mind staying long enough to do it. This is where I see a big challenge in these mechanics in today's MMO.

Giving players a self summons is one solution, which is what Sony eventually added to PoK in EQ. Once they did, people typically had no problem getting a rezz once they summoned their corpse. At that point, corpse retrieval largely became a non-issue and basically removes it from the equation. Which is both a good and bad thing, since it always felt like there was no longer any danger of deep dungeon exploration and taking risks.

Arden said:

I don't know if the VR guys have made a statement on what their plans for death mechanics are, BUT

Death mechanics will be the "canary in the coal mine." For all their professed desire to make an "old school" EQ-like game, if we start seeing them walking back death penalties we'll know we are headed for another shitty WoW clone rather than an EQ redux.

For whatever reason, mmo devs just can't seem to grasp that some things in the game need to suck. Dying needs to suck.

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Right, and train to zone needs to be heard more often. And somebody who just died can see it just a split second when he zones in before something else comes along and crushes his skull again.

I agree, it does have suck... But not in the way that EQ or even WoW (by the lolbros) did. The reason I said by the lolbros, is because they were the people that fucking took time out of everyone's schedule because they ran for the zone line every time everyone else went down. They had no chance of winning the fight, they just did 'cause... "lol bro, see ya!"

The only concern (i won't say fear because it's a fucking video game and there is nothing in any video that inspires any fear in me) i ever had with dying in EQ, from classic until those mechanics were changed was permanently losing my corpse and items (which never happened) and losing my camp (happened a lot!). Losing a good camp and having long runs back to recover a corpse are what pissed me off more than anything because it wasted my time. Losing exp had exactly 0 effect upon my decision making, my decisions were based upon whether or not what i was doing was a waste of my time.

Vinjin said:

1. XP loss
2. Naked travel from current bind spot
3. Corpse recovery
4. Item recovery

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The xp loss never bothered me much, it was the price for screwing up and getting myself killed. The naked run to my corpse was always the miserable part for me -- especially on my non-casters who would often be bound 2+zones away. The limited binding for non-casters was just insult to injury. I seriously would not have minded nearly as much if every class could bind at the zone in, but running across some zones naked at night was just... miserable.

Painful death makes a balancing problem that is hard to solve and that Pantheon would fail to solve.

One of the worst parts of EQ for me was grinding through the LOIO->OT->DL treadmill in Kunark, which was pretty horribly boring. But groups were rare/unreliable in most dungeons. I think that was due in large part to creating too much risk of going to dungeons, at least in the average player's eyes. If they go for a harsh death penalty, I just wouldn't trust them to get the risk vs. reward right to facilitate PUGs in fun places unless Daniel Kahneman is their next hire.

On the TLP servers those Kunark zones are generally empty while similar level dungeons are full...in part because the risk is way lower without corpse runs.

Raign said:

The xp loss never bothered me much, it was the price for screwing up and getting myself killed. The naked run to my corpse was always the miserable part for me -- especially on my non-casters who would often be bound 2+zones away. The limited binding for non-casters was just insult to injury. I seriously would not have minded nearly as much if every class could bind at the zone in, but running across some zones naked at night was just... miserable.

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So in EQ, they basically limited binding to cities only, which as you pointed out, can often be several zones away. That was indeed harsh, especially when you were naked.

But having the ability to bind anywhere or even at every zone in may be a bit too much the other way for my personal taste. Seems like there should be a middle ground in there somewhere.

It would also depend on if you were naked or not too.

Reht said:

The only concern (i won't say fear because it's a fucking video game and there is nothing in any video that inspires any fear in me) i ever had with dying in EQ, from classic until those mechanics were changed was permanently losing my corpse and items (which never happened) and losing my camp (happened a lot!). Losing a good camp and having long runs back to recover a corpse are what pissed me off more than anything because it wasted my time. Losing exp had exactly 0 effect upon my decision making, my decisions were based upon whether or not what i was doing was a waste of my time.

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You bring up a good point. EQ's death mechanic had a lot of unintended and intangible consequences. For one, it could be a great way to prevent people from permacamping shit. How many of us can remember hanging out in a dungeon waiting for the group camping X item to either leave or wipe? Because of how long it took to get your shit back together after a wipe, it gave another group the opportunity to take their turn. If you couldn't handle the camp or got lazy and fucked up, you lost it. As you should.

Sometimes the effects of game mechanics aren't readily apparent but are nonetheless crucial to making the game what it is. You don't realize how important a mechanic can be until you change it or "make it easier." Suddenly, the game just doesn't feel the same and you aren't even sure why.

At the end of the day, a wise developer knows that gamers don't *really* know what they want. They think they do, but they don't. It's much better to stick to your vision, ignore the whiners, and (if you're going to err) err on the side of making the game more difficult. Creative players will always find ways around your challenges- the key is challenging them at an appropriate level to begin with.

I definitely think significant XP loss would be good, enough to give you pause in new areas and make pussies stay out of dungeons. While it slows down your leveling, you can still spend time playing the game in a fun way. Corpse runs and the time associated with that is not playing the game in a fun way, imo. I don't necessarily think they should be gone completely, but the weight should be towards punitive measures that still allow you to spend your time in fun ways (ie, killing shit and exploring).