Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Arden · Mar 17, 2017

Denaut said:
If you mean the quests system, and you worked there, then you should know it was added for a bunch of reasons. You should also remember that it was conceived of and pushed through (with much arguing with management) by the content designerss themselves because it made the process of creating content significantly better and faster, while also providing a way for players to actually find the content that was there. The introduction of that system drastically improved not only content creation but player retention as well... by a ton.

I didn't mean the quest system specifically, no.

Last thing I'm going to say on the subject because I don't want to shit up the thread trying to rehash "what happened" 10+ years ago with a failed mmo when we clearly have different perspectives and different ideas about some things (though we both agree SOE isn't at fault for, well, anything that happened with VG prior to May 2007).

There was definitely a move towards making Vanguard more "accessible" long before SOE took over and a lot of those changes were controversial- you are right about that. I don't know if you paid any attention to Vanguard after Sigil folded- a lot of Sigil employees definitely didn't. I did, but only because friend (who was not a Sigil employee) continued to play with the free employee buddy account. I can tell you that the vast majority of the "theme park" changes that turned the game into another version of SOE mediocrity occurred after SOE took over in May 2007. I have zero interest in trying to determine when those ideas where generated- but I can tell you the worst of them took place after SOE took the reins.

The point of my original post wasn't to slam SOE or blame them, it just a note of caution that when you involve third party companies in your operation, it can have unforeseen and unintended consequences. You may not think it was a big deal to not be able to access subscriber info, but I can tell you it made many aspects of running the game after launch difficult. Making the mmo is only one part- you have to run the game after you make it.

By making an "old school/EQ-like" game, VR is going against the grain. There is a strong possibility that any involved third party entities will constantly try to pull the game in the direction of "accessibility" because, on its face, it makes sense that the easier and more accessible a game is, the better. A lot of third parties aren't going to understand things like: no in game maps with gps; harsh death penalty; quest givers without exclamation points over their heads; a strict stand against gold farmers; etc.

The only thing I'm trying to impart is that the more things VR maintains control of themselves, the less they will feel a pull to make the game easy and accessible (mediocre). Fortunately, I think the guys at VR probably know this already- not that it hurts to have a reminder.

Locnar · Mar 17, 2017

To me it was obvious Sigil was in panic mode soon after release. (maybe even before release, but the game was unplayable for me in beta) Every single thing that could be made easier was made easier. Faction system was neutered, fast travel everywhere, xp rates increased, you name it. They somehow thought the people wanted WoW, when the vanguard fans really wanted what pantheon is promising now. It was the technical issues that did early Vangaurd in, 100 percent.

Dire hards stuck with it despite the tech issues, but to watch Silius gut the game with every patch was heart wrenching.

Here is hoping that Pantheon keeps their head about them and sticks to a vision.

Melvin · Mar 18, 2017

Dullahan said:
Nope. Their original involvement, even before the deal, was most definitely contingent upon Sigil shifting their design to line up with SOE's. If you don't realize that, you clearly did not play the early game or it's beta phases. The idea that they independently abandoned their original vision in the last 6 months of development makes no sense.

I'm not going to pretend I know all of the details, but there was a night and day transition that began to occur right after Microsoft dropped out as publisher and they began negotiation with SOE.

I'm not going pretend I know all of the details either, but the game wasn't anywhere near being finished when Microsoft pulled the plug and SOE showed up with a defibrillator to save the day. You say that this badly managed game changed a lot between pre-beta and the final release? You say that the game continued to have significant changes made to it after release? I say no shit Sherlock. Was Vanguard the first MMO you ever paid any attention to in your life?

Jarek · Mar 19, 2017

DGB would ruin whatever vision Pantheon is attempting, guaranteed. Do you like microtransactions? Hope so, because DBG would love to sell you the things you should earn in game. Some people have less time, but they should have everything too, because time equals money and yada yada fuck you pay me.

No, any major publisher WILL go down the same path they've been going for the last decade and we all know it. Minimize risk maximize profit all hail the mighty shareholder to the detriment of everything else: gameplay, integrity, self agency, fun.

I can't imagine anything worse happening to Pantheon than being raped by DGB, EA, Ubisoft, et al. Might as well just go play EQNext... Oh wait.

shabushabu · Mar 20, 2017

Jarek said:
DGB would ruin whatever vision Pantheon is attempting, guaranteed. Do you like microtransactions? Hope so, because DBG would love to sell you the things you should earn in game. Some people have less time, but they should have everything too, because time equals money and yada yada fuck you pay me.

No, any major publisher WILL go down the same path they've been going for the last decade and we all know it. Minimize risk maximize profit all hail the mighty shareholder to the detriment of everything else: gameplay, integrity, self agency, fun.

I can't imagine anything worse happening to Pantheon than being raped by DGB, EA, Ubisoft, et al. Might as well just go play EQNext... Oh wait.

As long as the gameplay is there who cares?

Grim1 · Mar 20, 2017

Jarek said:
DGB would ruin whatever vision Pantheon is attempting, guaranteed. Do you like microtransactions? Hope so, because DBG would love to sell you the things you should earn in game. Some people have less time, but they should have everything too, because time equals money and yada yada fuck you pay me.

No, any major publisher WILL go down the same path they've been going for the last decade and we all know it. Minimize risk maximize profit all hail the mighty shareholder to the detriment of everything else: gameplay, integrity, self agency, fun.

I can't imagine anything worse happening to Pantheon than being raped by DGB, EA, Ubisoft, et al. Might as well just go play EQNext... Oh wait.

I don't know what Brad's vision is, haven't even looked it up. But if they go for the sub model and just reskin EQ with modern graphics and ui improvements that would be a winner... imho. Not a new opinion, but so what?

The classic EQ servers seem to be very popular even now. Updating the graphics and keeping the old rule sets is the winning formula. They had magic with early EQ up to Luclin.

Keeping the sub model allows them to not sell crap like you are talking about. Keep the items special and rare. If you have to work a bit for them, even better. I'm casual now, and still fine with that model.

etchazz · Mar 21, 2017

shabushabu said:
As long as the gameplay is there who cares?

Everyone should care, unless you like playing a game that's pay to win with gold farmers running rampant.

Utnayan · Mar 21, 2017

Jarek said:
DGB would ruin whatever vision Pantheon is attempting, guaranteed. Do you like microtransactions? Hope so, because DBG would love to sell you the things you should earn in game. Some people have less time, but they should have everything too, because time equals money and yada yada fuck you pay me.

No, any major publisher WILL go down the same path they've been going for the last decade and we all know it. Minimize risk maximize profit all hail the mighty shareholder to the detriment of everything else: gameplay, integrity, self agency, fun.

I can't imagine anything worse happening to Pantheon than being raped by DGB, EA, Ubisoft, et al. Might as well just go play EQNext... Oh wait.

At the end of the day, if there is a big payout, the dev house will sell.

Especially in this genre. McQuaid is no different. If someone throws a ton of money at him, Brad will look out for Brad. Not a knock against the guy, pretty sure all of us would do the same thing.

Kenadul · Mar 22, 2017

Dullahan said:
You have a poor memory. The themepark aspects I'm referring to were all post-Microsoft and after SOE got involved. There was no quest progression in the beta even a year prior to launch. I don't think they had even quests past level 20 at launch. There was no weak death penalty. The rifts were locked and did not allow fast travel anywhere by anyone at any level like they did later on. Even your ability to solo was changed drastically in late development.

None of those things were in alignment with the game they pitched us. Most of them were added months before launch, or came post-launch.

You're a bit confused I think Dullahan, a lot of what you said just didn't happen.

tyen · Mar 22, 2017

Dullahan · Mar 23, 2017

Melvin said:
I'm not going pretend I know all of the details either, but the game wasn't anywhere near being finished when Microsoft pulled the plug and SOE showed up with a defibrillator to save the day. You say that this badly managed game changed a lot between pre-beta and the final release? You say that the game continued to have significant changes made to it after release? I say no shit Sherlock. Was Vanguard the first MMO you ever paid any attention to in your life?

You couldn't have missed the point any harder if you tried.

There's a massive difference between an unfinished game lacking items, mobs, zones, and content, and one that goes through a total paradigm shift into something completely different in the last 6 months. Vanguard before SOE was shaping up to be another EverQuest with greater sandbox aspirations. What came out the other side was more EQ2/WoW bullshit. That's doesn't just happen by "finishing the game".

Flight · Mar 23, 2017

It's hard to say what Vanguard was akin to pre and post SoE because the senior management was so lacking (read high). They had industry novices designing zones and classes without enough direction or oversight. The whole thing was a mish mash.

Significantly quality control was non existent. At launch a whole two junior people made up the entire testing and quality control department. In live they pushed out a major patch which totally broke crafting. The crafting dev came on the forum and apologized explaining he'd been working through the night on the code right up to a couple of hours before they pushed it out. Took them weeks to fix it.

Pantheon seems different. I get the impression the major investor(s) have limited Brads oversight and are channeling the creative things he's good at. Win win for everyone.

Daidraco · Mar 23, 2017

The "What Could Have Been" from EverQuest: Next was what a lot of people were hyped about. The bitching about the goofy characters and the style of combat was just out of place for where they were in development, but it showed that people were already sold on the game overall. A destructible environment with an awesome questing system, a nostalgic world and more. Outside of the characters and the combat, the "idea" of the game had my soul ready.

Zaide · Mar 23, 2017

Flight said:
Pantheon seems different. I get the impression the major investor(s) have limited Brads oversight and are channeling the creative things he's good at. Win win for everyone.

This is exactly the feeling I have. Brad is strictly doing the game vision, Chris Perkins is making the vision a reality and some money dudes are making sure no one is taking 35k cash advances.

LachiusTZ · Mar 23, 2017

I cant believe the amount of projection and delusion in this thread.

Pantheon is going to be a hack job and a cash grab. The game isn't going to be worth a fuck long term. Its like 85% this is a turd and you guys are so desperate you have fooled yourselves.

Vinjin · Mar 23, 2017

LachiusTZ said:
I cant believe the amount of projection and delusion in this thread.

Pantheon is going to be a hack job and a cash grab. The game isn't going to be worth a fuck long term. Its like 85% this is a turd and you guys are so desperate you have fooled yourselves.

I was skeptical at first too but have become much more optimistic given the progress they've shown in the last 9 months. I'm also encouraged because the tools they have available today are wildly better than what they used for VG, enabling them to sidestep some of the more critical landmines that plagued the Sigil team. Additionally, I believe Brad was humbled by the last 10-12 years and knows he only has so many chances left for people to invest in him and his vision for MMOs.

He also appears to have surrounded himself with some pretty solid people on the team too which is huge. I'm sure they wouldn't have joined the team if they felt like Brad would pull off another disappearing act like he did with Sigil. These are people's livelihoods. I know if it were me, I'd vette the shit out of that before signing on and investing my time and talents into what I thought was going to be a pre-destined "turd".

Can the game still fail? Absolutely. Much like movies, games are never a sure thing. There are plenty that never see the light of day for one reason or another. But to this point in time, they've demonstrated they have a decent chance to release something people will enjoy.

What's your reason for saying it will be a complete flop? Are you still hanging on to 10 year old scars from Brad's past for this claim, or do you actually have new and relevant reasons as to why it will bomb?

Skanda · Mar 23, 2017

This game will be the Mass Effect: Andromeda of MMOs, only without the tens of millions of dollars for a budget.

Melvin · Mar 23, 2017

Dullahan said:
You couldn't have missed the point any harder if you tried.

There's a massive difference between an unfinished game lacking items, mobs, zones, and content, and one that goes through a total paradigm shift into something completely different in the last 6 months. Vanguard before SOE was shaping up to be another EverQuest with greater sandbox aspirations. What came out the other side was more EQ2/WoW bullshit. That's doesn't just happen by "finishing the game".

So you're saying that Vanguard before SOE was a god awful unfinished fucking mess, and after Microsoft scuttled it to cut their losses the people at SOE managed to polish that turd into something that kind of somewhat resembled a commercially viable game?

Again: no shit Sherlock.

Cylus · Mar 23, 2017

Denaut said:
Stuff

Korrupt · Mar 23, 2017

Cylus said:
View attachment 128041

Look at who it is, GD Sillius. Im surprised you aren't on this dev team.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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